Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Kikoten

It boils down to people making snarky remarks at me, telling me to get better, being so vague that even Freud would struggle to decipher the reason or rhyme why they would say things like, "Lol, ur DPS hurts me. here's a link" (this really happened). I've encountered this so damn much in WoW, to an astounding degree. That happens a lot less in FFXIV. Probably because I got better.

No, I'm not going to take it lightly when some chucklehead in the party decides to make fun of me throughout the instance. I hate that shit.

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I mean personally I would not say that is vague. Though I was not present. Do not get me wrong you are free to be annoyed by such actions but I just fail to see how that is elitist behavior. I also fail to see why someone would need to offer constructive criticism. Sure it is nice but far from an obligation.

Though I would say offering a guide is fairly constructive tbh.

A link to a well researched and constructed guide is better than any in game explanation. Furthermore, the time to learn is before the duty not during. The duty is for putting what you've learned into practice.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

Talking doesn't work sometimes. I was leveling my ast today, got sprout tank in Dzemael Darkhold, level 51 no soul stone and is not using stance. I told him what to do nicely, I got no response, he just went ahead. Everyone decided to wait with me. Eventually, after dying multiple times from battling the mobs alone he disconnected and gave us a legit reason to kick him.

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Nothing wrong with that. You tried, they ignored you. You guys did what you had to do. That's the key thing, you made an attempt, that's what counts.

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Originally Posted by Awha

See that is the weird thing you make it seem like not having yhe desire to take time out of one's own enjoyment to helping someone learn to play their class is inherently a weird or wrong thing to do.

That is the part that really gets me about the other side why this shift for the community to help when people if they really want to know can simply use Google I am sure they could find a bunch of videos as to how to play.

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It's 'weird' because the entire team benefits if you make a quick attempt to help someone who is new. A quick pointer, they correct their play and it's smooth sailing. But that requires the willingness to even try, which as you've repeatedly stated, you don't have. You've made it exceedingly clear that the silent kick is your solution to everything, even admitted that you've done it for giggles. I won't argue with you about malicious malcontents who are quite obviously taking the piss though.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

A link to a well researched and constructed guide is better than any in game explanation. Furthermore, the time to learn is before the duty not during. The duty is for putting what you've learned into practice.

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Because everyone will google and watch a walkthrough of a story dungeon before they play it, yeah, nice way to spoil the story for yourself. And yes, that goes even or perhaps better said especially for ShB content.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

A link to a well researched and constructed guide is better than any in game explanation. Furthermore, the time to learn is before the duty not during. The duty is for putting what you've learned into practice.

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Some people can watch all of the guides out there for a fight and still not learn it until they are in there doing it.

Different people learn in different ways.

Also different classes have different adjustments that have to be made for specific bosses.

It can be hard for a new player who is still learning the game to get the following perfect on the first run:

1. Rotation for their level
2. Doing mechanics - this includes getting out of bad AoE's
3. Watching out for other players messing up.

Until I actually do it, I don't learn it.

I watch a guide on a fight just so that I'm not running around crazy as that just gets me frustrated with myself and that's not fun. I watch one of the quick under 10 minute guides one time. Sometimes I queue right away after. Sometimes I don't.

I'm currently leveling a dragoon alt. I've looked at the level 80 rotation. I'm currently not bothering to master a rotation because I'm zipping through content quickly. I started the dragoon when 5.3 dropped with the trimmed MSQ. I'm in post-SB now. I'd call it pre-SHB. I'm currently lucky to remember to choose my partner.

On my BLM main, I can count the number of times I put my leylines down and those are mistakes. Especially in the later dungeons the mechanics don't have you standing still long enough if you don't know the fight to know where the spot to put the leylines is to avoid having to move out of it too much during the time it's down.

For me, a well researched and constructed guide is probably going to be too overwhelming. I learn best by doing. And no guide is going to give me that.

For some, the quick tip in game may be better than that guide because it's presented in a way that makes sense to them.

Edit to add: I'm also not going into content that is likely to require my rotation being better such as savages.

I am speaking on job guides and rotations. You don't need a guide for a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

Nothing wrong with that. You tried, they ignored you. You guys did what you had to do. That's the key thing, you made an attempt, that's what counts.



It's 'weird' because the entire team benefits if you make a quick attempt to help someone who is new. A quick pointer, they correct their play and it's smooth sailing. But that requires the willingness to even try, which as you've repeatedly stated, you don't have. You've made it exceedingly clear that the silent kick is your solution to everything, even admitted that you've done it for giggles. I won't argue with you about malicious malcontents who are quite obviously taking the piss though.



Because everyone will google and watch a walkthrough of a story dungeon before they play it, yeah, nice way to spoil the story for yourself. And yes, that goes even or perhaps better said especially for ShB content.

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Removing them also leads to smooth sailing, at least in my situations cause I will just ask for a replacement via discord; DC, LS, or hell even NN.

Not my desire to argue more so seek an understanding. My intent is not to change your mind more so understand why you feel putting ones own personal enjoyment ahead of another is weird or wrong. Since that is all I am doing when I remove someone from a group.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I am speaking on job guides and rotations. You don't need a guide for a dungeon.

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And like I said, a well researched and put together guide is likely going to overwhelm me. And people don't learn good when they are overwhelmed. I just used the dungeon guide as an example of me finding a quick and not necessarily well put together one as those guides come out right on top of the content coming out so it's usually done pretty quick. As opposed to hunting down a step by step walk through or a video of someone's run through it without cuts.

Again goes back to the needing to do it to learn it for me.

And I can train for ages on a dummy but as soon as I get into a real dungeon, that's when the real learning begins for me. Because I might have the rotation down, but trying to keep up with the rotation plus do the mechanics plus watch out for what other people are doing...

Some of us have to actually go into dungeons to learn - us hands on learners. Some players likely need someone giving them instructions over voice chat because they are auditory learners. Some, like you apparently, are visual learners and learn primarily by reading.

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Originally Posted by Awha

understand why you feel putting ones own personal enjoyment ahead of another is weird or wrong. Since that is all I am doing when I remove someone from a group.

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It is the definition of "Selfish". Something many consider an undesirable trait.
Ultimately it's up to you what you value or what morals you hold, but many people will look down upon someone who always considers themselves first in every situation.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

And I can train for ages on a dummy but as soon as I get into a real dungeon, that's when the real learning begins for me. Because I might have the rotation down, but trying to keep up with the rotation plus do the mechanics plus watch out for what other people are doing... .

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WHAT I LEARNED IN HALL OF NOVICE IS.... WHAT I LEARNED IN HALL OF NOVICE IS...!!!!

Real talk though I agree, the dummy is only good for practicing core bread and Butter rotations and dps checking. The only way to practice mechanics is to do them. Maybe an update to the Hall of Novice to explain "advanced" mechanics that aren't covered there would be nice, that way people have a way to be exposed to them piror to playing with other players.

Technically you can argue the Trust AI do just that if you follow them during mechanics for dungeons but it's not like it's explained in any detail.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

And like I said, a well researched and put together guide is likely going to overwhelm me. And people don't learn good when they are overwhelmed. I just used the dungeon guide as an example of me finding a quick and not necessarily well put together one as those guides come out right on top of the content coming out so it's usually done pretty quick. As opposed to hunting down a step by step walk through or a video of someone's run through it without cuts.

Again goes back to the needing to do it to learn it for me.

And I can train for ages on a dummy but as soon as I get into a real dungeon, that's when the real learning begins for me. Because I might have the rotation down, but trying to keep up with the rotation plus do the mechanics plus watch out for what other people are doing...

Some of us have to actually go into dungeons to learn - us hands on learners. Some players likely need someone giving them instructions over voice chat because they are auditory learners. Some, like you apparently, are visual learners and learn primarily by reading.

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You learn your job and rotation prior to doing content so you are learning the content and not your job. If you know your job going into content if on a very basic and non-optimal manner you are going to be able to learn the content more efficiently. It's all a very simple thing, but a thing the majority of the player base doesn't do.