random Duty Finder groups - Square Enix attitude solution INC

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Originally Posted by InVizO

can't believe all the care bears that actually think a "VOTE KICK" can be maliciously used.

If 3/3 other people in the group feel you are not up to par in gear, skill level, or competence.... THEN I'M SORRY but maybe you deserve to be kicked, nothing personal.

I don't believe SE on this one, they probably have a design flaw preventing them from easily implementing a vote kick.

The "malicious use" bs excuse they are feeding us is right up there for their reasoning behind not letting us send tells in duty finder.

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aparently human nature + internet are foreign to you. I would be your guide but I don't care

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Originally Posted by ashikenshin

aparently human nature + internet are foreign to you. I would be your guide but I don't care

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With that sly remark you are inferring that the game is better without any kick feature than with one that requires a vast majority vote?

Desub now and leave, no one wants you here

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Originally Posted by InVizO

can't believe all the care bears that actually think a "VOTE KICK" can be maliciously used.

If 3/3 other people in the group feel you are not up to par in gear, skill level, or competence.... THEN I'M SORRY but maybe you deserve to be kicked, nothing personal.

I don't believe SE on this one, they probably have a design flaw preventing them from easily implementing a vote kick.

The "malicious use" bs excuse they are feeding us is right up there for their reasoning behind not letting us send tells in duty finder.

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Actually this doesn't work at all, there is a reason why democracies also need to offer legal and political protection towards minorities. Relevant quote by Alexis de Tocqueville below.

"If it be admitted that a man possessing absolute power may misuse that power by wronging his adversaries, why should not a majority be liable to the same reproach? Men do not change their characters by uniting with one another; nor does their patience in the presence of obstacles increase with their strength. For my own part, I cannot believe it; the power to do everything, which I should refuse to one of my equals, I will never grant to any number of them."

i can see it being abused, and the new players will be the victims. It really make me not want to do dungeons, and care less about this game and not re-up in 90 days.

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Originally Posted by InVizO

With that sly remark you are inferring that the game is better without any kick feature than with one that requires a vast majority vote?

Desub now and leave, no one wants you here

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hahaha apparently the internet + anonimity are not new to you as you already turned sour with just one post. The kick feature is coming and I haven't said the game is better with or without it. I am pro kick feature but I think that they really need to think of ways to not let it be abused by players. I have played wow and know how this works.

Your inferring skills are lacking

Why not just a regular vote kick, but don't let the party see how many votes are piling up? If I vote to kick PlayerX, he will see 1 vote against him (not from whom), and nobody else has to know. That way, you don't get a crowd mentality prompting other players to also vote against him. If PlayerX is AFK or a troll or whatever then everyone can independently vote. Since you can't send tells in the instance any ganging up has to be stated in the open for the whole group to see.

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Originally Posted by Mordain

Why not just a regular vote kick, but don't let the party see how many votes are piling up? If I vote to kick PlayerX, he will see 1 vote against him (not from whom), and nobody else has to know. That way, you don't get a crowd mentality prompting other players to also vote against him. If PlayerX is AFK or a troll or whatever then everyone can independently vote. Since you can't send tells in the instance any ganging up has to be stated in the open for the whole group to see.

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yup, also if you queue with 2 friends and have one random you cannot vote kick the random. Because talking with your friends through LS or FC chat to plan to vote kick someone is easier.

One of the problems I foresee would be when people can tend to get a reputation.

Back in FFXI there was this awful player named Tigereye on Titan. He was a straight up idiot, and everyone avoided him like the plague.

So lets say using the example of Tigereye above that some donkus named Tiger Eye gets a reputation for being a straight up d-bag with a tendency to bust out your momma jokes while he should be healing the tank, thus leading to frustratingly tragic losses. Word of mouth travels fast, so say your friends group up with a guy named Tyger Eye who is actually a decent player. They might not realize this isnt THE Tiger Eye. The vote system is going to send him packing. I've seen a lot of names be awfully similar (a lot of people seem to enjoy cliche things like Shadow, Light, -born, classic old school FF related names.)


Admittedly, this also falls on the fault of the party for assuming, but I'm sure this is something to take into consideration to be able to avoid.

I like the MVP idea - even though it's just a rough idea. Reminds me of FFTA2 a little bit.
As for the vote-kick. I think this community is straight-forwardly selfish and only care about their needs.
How do you suppose people should get better if they will be kicked if they don't hate super broken uber gear...
They just want to be at the top of the elitists and strike everyone down who wants to get better to and progress.

No fun allowed and no newbies allowed seems to be the policy of this endgame player base - which is very very VERY sad.
Teamwork is an alien concept and bashing weaker/not that perfectly skilled players is the way to go.

You may now go and be ashamed of your squirmy behavior and attitude. (note that this doesn't apply to all players at the endgame but shockingly many people still)

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Originally Posted by Shikiseki

How do you suppose people should get better if they will be kicked if they don't have uber gear???

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Perfectly honest question. Most Raids that drop stones for DL / Relic +1 gear requires a team of 8. If said player is trying to improve themselves, that doesn't give other players the right to be douchebags about it. If said player is being a douche then thats another story.

For example: I see shouts just for CM, Ifrit, Garuda and Titan for parties with relic weapons and full DL gear only. Others need not apply.
I don't know about everyone else but I have done CM, and Ifrit so far in normal lvl 50 af and haven't had any issues.
Seriously the game has not been out for 90 days and people are expected to be 1337 already - like its their full time job. Some people need to understand that players are not going to get better by others shunning them. This is a Videogame, and it should be treated as such.

I like the idea as it's a rather benign way to reward people willing to work with strangers. Not enirely sure how people can abuse it. Either you get a upvote, or you don't. If you get one, awesome. If not, oh well. Personally, I like to see an incentive for folk to give it a little extra.

Not enirely sure I can see how it can be abused. Nobody can be held hostage by folks demanding an upvote AFTER the instance is over. There is NO downvoting which can totally be abused. Obviously you can't vote for friends you queue with since that can be abused just as easily.

No, this system rewards people who cooperate with others when they have no influence over them outside of their performance in the instance. And it harms no one except those who want the rewards yet refuse to play with strangers.

Playing with friends is its own reward.

Should be interesting to see how this goes, though unless they figure out some way to improve dps queues, people will have even less incentive to queue a dps. Hum.

Maybe more people will go tank or heal and it might balance out some?

One can hope.

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Originally Posted by Callence

For example: I see shouts just for CM, Ifrit, Garuda and Titan for parties with relic weapons and full DL gear only. Others need not apply.

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The big question here is... if someone already has full DL gear + relic, isn't that person past the hard mode primals in his progression?
I mean, do they have any reason to do them, except cuz they're cool and fun to do? I mean... they want OVERGEARED people, so they can rush through a content that's already behind them?

That's completely paradoxical to me. Unless they only have fun by doing underleveled content that's easy and trivial for them.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

The big question here is... if someone already has full DL gear + relic, isn't that person past the hard mode primals in his progression?
I mean, do they have any reason to do them, except cuz they're cool and fun to do? I mean... they want OVERGEARED people, so they can rush through a content that's already behind them?

That's completely paradoxical to me. Unless they only have fun by doing underleveled content that's easy and trivial for them.

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They are speedrunning to gather the max amount of Tomestones per hour to gear out other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Ecks007

I gotta say. I don't like this. I mean, I see why you would want to reward people for being voted on as being nice and all, but this completely excludes players who pre-make parties on their own servers now, from obtaining these specific items as quickly as a random joe schmo who wants to queue up by themselves and wait forever (if they are a dps job). Healers and Tanks will be able to take advantage of this system exclusively, if they act helpful and friendly far quicker than any DPS class that does the same exact thing. This is not a good thing. It is not as good as it sounds in theory.

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Exactly.

This will never work and will only piss off many people.

you can then level a tank or a healer and get your items faster. This will be more helpful for others dps since their queue time will be lower. You know, two birds one stone.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

The big question here is... if someone already has full DL gear + relic, isn't that person past the hard mode primals in his progression?
I mean, do they have any reason to do them, except cuz they're cool and fun to do? I mean... they want OVERGEARED people, so they can rush through a content that's already behind them?

That's completely paradoxical to me. Unless they only have fun by doing underleveled content that's easy and trivial for them.

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Not always - i have LS mates that are DL geared but they do Primals for their relic gear

HOPEFULLY people will retain the purpose of playing a game in the first place; to have fun. I get irked by elitists as much as the next guy, but always having something to look forward to is nice. I know we're just breaking the surface with the game now since we haven't even passed the first level cap into the REAL endgame era yet (just think, we're all donning the equivalent of the original AF in FFXI. How crappy is that gear now?) MVP stature could always reward nifty little things like +1 boosts here and there to pieces of armor of your choosing just to add some customization. As long as I don't see everyone running around in scorpion harnesses and rogues culottes I'll be happy.

I really wish I could downvote those people who sit at the beginning of CM or sit during a cutscene. Just had a pair from Lich that bombed our run.

I like the idea of the MVP system, as long as it can't easily be cheated.

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Originally Posted by SenKoyo

I really wish I could downvote those people who sit at the beginning of CM or sit during a cutscene. Just had a pair from Lich that bombed our run.

I like the idea of the MVP system, as long as it can't easily be cheated.

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You and your ilk are the very reason there will be no downvotes, first-timer wants to watch the CS you you want to downvote them? Ridiculous... If they every become crazy enough to allow vote-to-kick or downvotes I sincerely hope that people that are new to the instance will be unkickable.

Uh, no. You don't seem to understand what he means or have been lucky enough to not have someone do this to you. I did a CM run, and we had a BLM literally afk the moment we entered, we did the ENTIRE run with them just standing there at the spawn point. At first we thought it was some sort of emergency after doing multiple pt calls and such, but as SOON as we killed boss and got our 100 philo, they left DF. It's really frustrating to deal with people who take advantage of the system because there's no penalty for abuse.

I think there should be some sort of rank system at least, if you're an a-hole people will obv vote you thumbs down and if you get enough reports then there can be some sort of punishment, idk maybe you can't use DF for a week or.... mythos reset >.> As for the subject of kicking, imo it can only be available to kick after you're offline, so if someone d/c you can boot them and get someone new.

I think its hard to tackle this in a way to make everyone happy.

On one hand we have veteran players from OTHER games that have their habits and want to have the highest success rate during the fastest run ever. And as soon as they see a weakling they want to get rid of'em asap.

On the other hand we have the newby, that really wants to try hard at the game, but dungeons are getting harder, the learning curve is steeper. And that newby has not made many friends yet in game... They need to be taught how to tackle the chalenges and that takes extra time on a dungeon run.

And lastly we have a few bad apples. Yes, we have the little "baslards" out there that ruin the game play for everyone. Now those... Those should have a "vote down" meter. And that vote down meter should work for fate runs, dungeons. -Bad karma meter!

--> my desire is to not see Vote-Kick implemented. But a Vote down meter for those that play the game maliciously.

I'd rather see a downvote system actually. I can't imagine I, or others, will constantly upvote people every single run just because they weren't a jerk. But if I can right click someone and there's "downvote for jerkness!", sure. Also, since an upvote system provides rewards--which are just cosmetic and so many people don't even care--, there's no incentive to still not be a jerk. If too many downvotes puts a lockout timer on all dungeons for however long, now that's an incentive.

Of course, that can also be abused, so I don't even know how I feel about that.

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Originally Posted by ashikenshin

you can then level a tank or a healer and get your items faster. This will be more helpful for others dps since their queue time will be lower. You know, two birds one stone.

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As a player who always plays healer, tank, or some other low-damage support class, I think it's kind of nice to have the advantage in a game system for once. Usually, tanks, healers, and support get the lowest score/contribution/rank/reward because they aren't doing enough damage. To be sure, every effort should be made to make the system equitable, but it's a refreshing change to not automatically get the shaft in mechanics like this.

Hi guys, I've seen a good concept for communities as a theory, but never in practice (the point of the concept I think). As a long time WoW player and other games, I felt the vote kick tool was encouraging elitist behaviours, harassment and a very temporary anonymity shield. The ethos "I'll never see this person again, why should I be nice?" seemed very widespread.

Instead I'd like to suggest a "hateban" system, something I've seen mentioned, that is an anonymous system so players can't tell when they are "banned". This means that every player has an upvote/downvote function, with a democracy system in place so that each dungeon gives a change of 1. If every player had a star rating of 1-5 governed by the votes, they could be grouped together. I suck at explaining but here's the basic mechanic. Cont...

+25 points = 5 stars, great player, well liked in the majority of dungeons, only ever groups with players at 3 stars or higher.
24-10 points = 4 Stars, good player, inexperienced and liked, groups with anyone 2 stars or higher
9-0 Points = 3 Stars, average/new player, may have issues with communication, behaviour, generally a solid party member but not a constant nice/high performer. Groups with 2 stars or higher.
0- -5 points = 2 Stars, a poor quality player that isn't felt to be nice or helpful and taking the darker path of gameplay. Cannot group with 5 star players.
-6 or less points = 1 star, cannot group with players other than 2 stars. Trolls, intentional Wiping, harassment and bad play. Generally bracketed away from "normal" players and longer queue times.

Cont... part 3
This can also work with chat systems, spammers and poor behaviour means those "blacklisted" will only be seen by those Blacklisted, and ignored by the greater community. Over time and random play with others (random rezzes for non-party members, other significant features) this can be considered a "positive" vote, and fix any overall issues. In the same way, anyone found in a lower position wouldn't be penalised unless there are long term issues. In the same way, quitting party as the last person alive could be seen as a "downvote", to avoid people just running from a hard encounter.

I hope this post is clear, I'm rather tired after work. Apologies if any rules were broken or lack of clarity.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

From a technical standpoint, it wouldn't be very difficult to have a vote to kick feature for the Duty Finder, and we are planning to implement this.

However, as there is the concern that it could be used maliciously to get rid of players that groups do not like, we are working hard to create a system that reduces the chances for problems to occur. Due to this, we are continuing to look into the feature, as well as whether we will implement this in patch 2.1.

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Please stop.

Yes, there is a chance that groups could use this feature maliciously, but you do realize that this vote-kick feature exists in many other games and there isn't an epidemic of people kicking out others just for spite. And in the event that we are kicked, we can simply hit the LFG tool again and get into a dungeon.

Yes, build in things like not being able to kick a party member for at least 15min to avoid the knee-jerk reaction, and make us not able to kick from when combat start to the end of loot distribution.. but i fear that whatever system is put in place, it will not be as simple as that.

We are all adults (or those that aren't, are children being allowed to play by adults, so it's not your job to protect the children), and we can take care of ourselves in this game; We don't need big brother safety proofing every. single. thing. You are not going to prevent all harassment in XIV, no matter how hard you try, all you will end up doing is making every "safety-proofed" feature something this painful to work with at best.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

From a technical standpoint, it wouldn't be very difficult to have a vote to kick feature for the Duty Finder, and we are planning to implement this.

However, as there is the concern that it could be used maliciously to get rid of players that groups do not like, we are working hard to create a system that reduces the chances for problems to occur. Due to this, we are continuing to look into the feature, as well as whether we will implement this in patch 2.1.

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Here's an idea for SE.
Instead of a simple vote kick system, you may think of implement a system where everyone can vote for abandon the duty and it'll pass if 3/4 people or 6/8 people agree on it. That way it won't be unfair for people to abuse the vote kick since they will have to restart after. And of course, make this voting abandon duty to have no penalty since it's by votes.

DOTA 2 / Valve has a system where at the end of a match:
1) You can commend players (Under Categories such as Friendly, Leadership etc.)
2) Report Abuse with stipulation to what kind of abuse. (Purposely Feeding, Chat/ Voice Abuse, Using abilities to purposely ruin a game)
3) Rate the match with 5 Star system. (Not really anything except feedback for SE)

People who are reported for abuse by enough players get reviewed. (Chat logs etc.) and action can be taken against them. Punishment can vary from being put on "Low priority" during Duty Finder (So it'll take longer to find a DF party.) To being banned for a day(s).

ARR could really learn a lot from this system... because the assholes on the internet are universal, and this system weeds them out fairly well.

People that are d_ckholes online that needed this syetm will find a way to remain d_ckholes after the patch has been implemented.

I usually keep my verbal contribution to parties to a minimum. "Hi" when the dungeon loads up and "thank you" in the end.

I'm for a vote kick, but it needs conditions.

1) In a light party, must be 3/4 vote. Full party is 6/8.
2) Vote kicks can not be initiated while anyone has enmity or is within a CS. If a fight starts while the prompt is active, the kick is canceled.
3) Vote kicks can not be initiated if there is treasure to be distributed.
4) Vote kicks can not be initiated until 3m after a boss kill/wipe has passed if a boss has been engaged. (Giving more than enough time to trigger #3's condition)
5) You may only initiate one kick attempt per instance, refunded if the attempt is interrupted by #2.
6) Failure to vote within the time of the prompt will be considered a No.

...it's not perfect, but ultimately it should minimize griefing potential.

I'm not sure what the right solution is, but the situation is dire. I had to MPK and ditch a jerk of a SCH just this morning in AK before the first boss.

...Yes, I had to.

Are your children misbehaving? Bribe them. That is always the best route to an unspoiled development, amirite?

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Originally Posted by Reithomeige

--> my desire is to not see Vote-Kick implemented. But a Vote down meter for those that play the game maliciously.

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I finally got my bf to play this game with me and we are both new to MMOs and just at the lv 25 dungeon, he is a tank and he tries so hard to learn but we were paired with 2 DD jerks that were so demeaning to him and mocking him that he has had the game ruined by such trolls. The learning curve is steep and there is almost no in game help, you learn by practicing dungeon runs (and reading the forums) but right now we are playing and we just dread the next dungeon run because of the unpleasantness,most people are leveling up their 2nd or 3rd class and farming equipment and have no time for newbies or people who want to watch cutscenes.

Anyway, that's why a down button wouldn't work, cuz newbies would just be voted down by jerks like above, but vote up might, cuz you would only vote up the decent players who were not rude jerks

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Originally Posted by Paspalum

jerks in the duty finder

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My advice is to not learn in the duty finder. Find a good FC that will take in new players to show you the ropes. This way, they have something to gain by helping you learn the correct way to play your jobs, since in the future, your skills will benefit them.