You can have multiple retellings of the same story across different types of media that are inconsistent with each other yet still internally 'valid' or 'canon' (i.e. TV series vs. movie plot). This prevents you from using one to draw inferences about the other, however.
Mama's standalone story about a powerful mage and the destruction of his society by warring gods is perfectly valid within the framework of the NieR Re[in]carnation universe, which is what the adaptation was designed for. It doesn't need to be internally consistent with anything else. Trying to draw conclusions over in FFXIV is a different story, however, and not just because of the contradictions with the other soul splitting examples that I've already described. If Elidibus was piloting Zodiark into battle at the time of the sundering, Elidibus would be sundered as well. That detail doesn't really matter in the NieR retelling, because Elidibus doesn't need to exist in that story. Likewise, the in the NieR retelling, the Final Days are described as being caused by meteors that rain down to destroy life on the planet, and the sundering itself is depicted as an unintended consequence of the battle between two gods, because neither Meteion nor dynamis feature in this version.
You don't need to resolve any of the contradictions with other versions, however. It's just a retelling of events with some variations on a theme mixed in, much like DSR was.
As far as FFXIV is concerned, I did inquire around how the mechanics around sundering work during the last lore Q+A, especially in the context of the other soul splitting mechanics that we've seen. I don't think we'll get a clear answer, because there's probably no clear set of rules around it currently. I think the best explanation that we have is still the one that Emet provides in the Ocular, which is why we know that sundering something doesn't cause physical damage and is akin to a sort of cloning process.
I get that there's a need to try to explain how people dispersed from Amaurot and why they didn't try to stay and rebuild using their old tech. A 'Babil' story is likely necessary to explain this diaspora. The only issue is, they haven't actually told that story yet in FFXIV, so this all ends up being very speculative.
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11-10-2023, 03:46 PMLyth
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11-10-2023, 07:29 PMClereticThey all 'count'; they're just not providing new information. That's actually pretty much universally true across the games FFXIV's had 'actual story' crossovers into: FFXV, Monster Hunter, Nier Reincarnation, Dissidia (both NT and Opera Omnia), none of them have information about XIV that isn't in XIV unless you count unusual character interactions like Dissidia NT showing what Y'shtola does when she doesn't have anything better to do, or the timeline weirdness of Opera Omnia having expansions-era Alisaie and Lyse interacting with ARR-era Scions. There's also someone summoning a primal in another world in FFXV, but I don't think anyone considered that too surprising or impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
The way XIV's writers write/authorize external content isn't in a way that makes otherwise unrelated media essential reading. Some franchises do that: some RPGs make their Japanese-only audio dramas canon, some MMOs shunt important scenes into tie-in novels, some movie franchises disclose important lore through Fortnite. But XIV doesn't do any of those; when there's a XIV event in another game, it provides interesting hooks for that game's crowd, and a fanservice nod for the FFXIV fans; it doesn't provide new information.
So to answer your question: it's not that you picked a collab event I arbitrarily don't think is an acceptable source, they're all acceptable sources... that never tell us something we don't already know. (EDIT: Which personally, I consider a good thing: I don't want to have to play a limited-time collab event in a gacha game for another franchise to learn something important about the game I actually want to play.) -
11-11-2023, 01:55 AMSannaR
There is a scene we see where everyone in the scene has the echo and is unable to communicate. It's when Hythlodaeus asks Emet if he see us. We try to say something to them, but those two are unable to understand us. The brain also will compartmentalize and repress things it deems us unable to bare or handle at the time. To the point where it is capable of developing other personalities that are able to handle such things.
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11-11-2023, 02:51 AMAbsimiliardSo, firstly, I do strongly disagree with this take. I find it most illogical to assume everyone was physically just fine immediately post-Sundering, especially considering there's an interview in which it is described as an imperfect process that left a lot of flaws in its victims. For example, we're informed many of the unusual characteristics seen in various races (Au Ra horns, for example) were the result of evolution gradually correcting the damage caused by uneven distribution during the Sundering. I would even go so far as to say the interview invalidates part of Emet-Selch's description of the Sundering specifically because it outright destroys his assertions regarding how the physical component of the division actually worked. Not quite the point I was trying to end up talking about, but we roll with the punches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Secondly, and returning to what brought me back into this topic in the first place; I'm trying to focus on a piece of the puzzle people frequently gloss over when discussing the sundered and Sundering. We are told quite explicitly, and on more than one occasion at that, the Sundering itself affected both corporeal and spiritual qualities. However, there's a third thing it reduced: intellect. What little we see of the ancients shows them to be quite normal, if advanced in some cases, in terms of intellectual capabilities. None of them are shown to possess the kind of strange alien intellect one would have expected, instead simply being... well, people. We learn during Emet-Selch's speech in the Ocular that intelligence is counted among those things divided into fourteen by the Sundering. It seems to me taking what is essentially just unusually smart people and dividing their intellect by fourteen isn't going to result in creatures with their mental faculties intact.
As I understand it, the crossover events were supposed to be part of both settings, officially. I.e. the NieR raids actually happened so far as FFXIV is concerned, and they are considered actual events by the NieR setting as well. This in turn means NieR Re[in]carnation's retelling is something which should be taken into consideration, not merely dismissed out of hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
And to your point about the Final Days: the crossover story does not, in fact, imply the cause was meteors. The falling of meteors is framed as part of the Final Days, not the cause thereof.
That was a unique circumstance with an equally unique cause. The conditions for the WoL being sent back involved being reduced to so something so aetherially thin as to barely even exist. Far thinner than what your typical sundered would've been. The Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus of that time had no reason to compartmentalize or repress anything. There simply wasn't much of anything there to communicate with, at least not until Emet-Selch solved the problem with an infusion of his aether. The odds seem good no one else in the area would've even been able to tell the WoL was there, let alone initiate any form of interaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
I have no experience with Opera Omnia outside of reading about it, but I am well versed in all the Dissidia games. The characters appearing in Dissidia aren't actually those characters. They are instead reproductions of those characters created through the use of certain technologies and/or magics. Dissidia NT and its predecessors, like most Final Fantasy games, are entirely contained within their little bubble. The simple truth is that most crossovers in Final Fantasy are only "canon" to the game playing host, and there's normally some other explanation than a character being yanked from its homeworld (Dissidia's method being a good example). It's always made obvious when something is supposed to be an exception to the general rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
There have been instances where the short-stories provided key lore that was not already present in-game. Good thing SE had the common courtesy to make those free, I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
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11-11-2023, 03:58 AMSannaR
My repress and compartmentalize was what could be a reason what happened with the sundered when they were just 1/14. Not that Hythlodaeus or Emet needed to do so when we met. Yes it was one moment under special circumstances and yet it is a moment where not even the echo was able to allow communication. Where it could also be similar to how there was an unable to communicate problem between the three unsundered and a traumatized 1/14 sundered.
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11-11-2023, 11:28 AMLythYou can't agree or disagree with a stated fact. Emet-Selch states that sundering something does not strike at their physical form. It splits the soul. We know this as well from the shards themselves. Sundering the star didn't destroy it. It split it off into parallel worlds, which appear to be identical (Norvrandt has all the same geographical zones as Eorzea.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
The Q+A answer for why we became so diverse is straightforward. We know that sundering someone enervates the soul. We compensated for this by developing unique strengths and weaknesses over time. What Yoshi-p is describing is just divergent evolution.
On the subject of attributes, what you're describing aetheric properties of the soul. The Amaurotines aren't out there solving math questions that we cannot, and we've developed plenty of technological advancements that they just didn't have, including interstellar travel. What they can do is manipulate aether a lot better than we can, which is a form of 'intelligence'.
We've met the Amaurotines, and they're not geniuses. We've also encountered Fandaniel both before and after he was sundered, and let's face it, it didn't really make a whole lot of difference to his mental faculties either way.
As far as the collaboration events, I think lore revelations are valid for their respective games, but you run into issues when you try to cherry pick elements of them across media franchises. I'm not even going to try to reconcile Dark Apocalypse with the rest of the NieR franchise, or why Mama was in the possession of the Wandering Minstrel.
As for the Vestiges of Paradise event in NieR Re[in]carnation, let me recap what it states for you:
'The end arrives all too suddenly. Calamity swallows the star. Meteors rain in cataclysmic deluge as if to scour away all life. The powerful mage and his clever fellows create a god that will stabilize the star... sacrificing half of mankind to do it. The dark god they birth does its work.
When the danger has passed, the people gaze on their ruined world. "We must put this right. We shall return to paradise."
They further sacrifice to their god. Yet some would oppose them. "We must move forward. What's done is done, the future awaits." These souls create a brighter god to challenge the others' dark deity.
The gods clash for days without end. At last, the Light of the Future - the bright god emerges victorious. The decisive blow is so strong, it sunders both Darkness and the star... Thus does one world become fourteen.'
As I stated before, it's a different retelling of events. Which is necessary, because they had to rewrite the story into a form which could be easily understood by players with no background knowledge of FFXIV whatsoever.
In the process, story elements change in order to keep it simple. Meteion, Hermes, Elidibus, and Venat don't feature in this plot despite being central to it. Dynamis and transformations doesn't come up. The sundering is the accidental byproduct of a several day battle between a bright and dark god. That story is a perfectly fine one as well, but you can't mix and match details from each at will. -
11-11-2023, 12:14 PMAbsimiliardAllow me to clarify. I am not disputing the scene. I am saying my understanding of the scene does not align with yours, and it isn't likely to until or unless new evidence comes to light at a later point that clarifies things in a way that supports your position. I will gladly concede in the event this occurs. Until then, however, I believe my interpretation to be correct. Granted, I don't actually play the game in English a fair bit of the time. I much prefer the JP localization, and I'd probably check out the FR too if I had any clue how to unravel that mass of baguettes and alien syntax. The differences between localizations are honestly pretty fascinating at times. Sometimes they line up, sometimes they say totally different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Allow me to... well never mind, it appears the forum won't load the images. Mildly annoying, that. Ah well. I'll just summarize where I was going to go with this instead:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
The Vestiges of Paradise follow what seems to be a stripped down version of the ShB telling of events from prior to the Sundering up until the event itself, albeit with the addition of a little scene implying Emet-Selch was going to spend the night partying with two unidentified people. I'd say the good money would be on Elidibus and Hythlodaeus for that one. I'll also point out real quick your recap is missing a few lines, most notably the follow up to meteors rain in cataclysmic deluge as if to scour all life away which was land buckles; cities burn; blood flows. I assume this was omitted for brevity's sake, which is understandable.
Post-Sundering we get one of the few things not really directly referenced in FFXIV at all, but I don't feel it conflicts at all. I feel it directly supports what was already put forward by Emet-Selch in the Ocular. This of course being the bit about the sundered being pretty well fubar.
Now, once again, I reiterate the stated intent behind the crossover events. These events were to be applicable to both settings, not just one or the other. The NieR raids are officially part of the NieR timeline as well as that of FFXIV, and though seemingly outdated in parts, what was put in NieR Re[in]carnation would fall under this same umbrella. There is a difference between cherry picking and looking through stuff to determine what remains relevant and what does not. People have had to do the same with the EE books, no? Those are often deemed permissible in lore debates despite being prone to invalidation via retcon. It's a normal part of the process of going through a game's lore. You figure out what still fits, and you keep that in mind until or unless new information comes to light to invalidate that too.
I get what you're saying, but I don't agree with it. I believe the contents of NieR to be perfectly admissible with the caveat of needing to determine what does and does not fit with present lore. I'd be in complete agreement with you if we were talking about something like Dissidia or Stranger of Paradise, both of which have a plethora of completely one-sided crossovers with various titles.
In any case, I imagine this will be my last post on the matter. That fourteen day timer will pick me off anytime now, and it's not likely I'll be back for a long time unless I get tapped to play FC/house maintenance duty again for someone getting shipped out. Good news for some posters, I'm sure. :P For what it's worth, it's been kinda fun debating you lot on the forums over the years - those that kept it civil, anyway. Rarely have I been in agreement with a fair portion of the usual faces, but them's the breaks. -
11-22-2023, 12:12 PMYuella
I figure out a way to satisfy both faction, which is parallel timeline. We create a separate timeline where Hydaelyn didn't sunder the world. The question is, when should we interfere? There are two options:
1. After the summoning of Zodiark. From that cutscene we saw that Venat only sundered the world after she saw that everyone was too dependent to Zodiark (Emet-Selch even said they were tempered in a ShB dialog). So we came back to that time with a porxie, show that the tempering can be cured and just gave them as many porxies as they need. Then they will figure out a way to defeat Endsinger (maybe by creating another Meteion like being but showered with hope and positive emotions and send her to fight Endsinger).
2. Before the Final Days actually came. We know where Endsinger is because Venat gave us the location. So why don't we go back to the past and fought her there before she started the original Final Days. We can also do it in option 1 but I think it's better if the ancients themselves defeat Endsinger.
Which one is better? While option 2 seems better, I can argue that option 1 is actually better. In option 1, the ancients will have experienced depression and overcome it. If this happens again they know how to fight it. In option 2, life would continue the way it was and it's just a matter of time before another Hermes does the same experiment and cause the Final Days. Or it will end like the third part of the final dungeon where they will create a god and ask it to kill them all because life has become too boring and stagnant. -
11-23-2023, 05:27 AMthegreatonemal1.They are broken as a people and couldn't stand up to her only the convocation was tempered and it wasn't happy thoughts and hope that beat Meteion per say. They also have no way of creating more Meteions in the first place Hermes never submitted the concept and hes under the impression that she was a failure and they all died. Telling him the truth leaves room for interference and again, he's not gonna share how to make the concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuella
2. they have no way of getting there and don't have the tech to do it. It took the looprits six thousands years to develop an engine that could move the moon. The Ancients themselves just can't deal with dynamis and they simply lack the drive to withstand a universe's worth of despair.
The only thing I can think of is going back in time to when Hermes was planning to make Meteion and get him to not use dynamis as her power source.