Mentors...please!

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Originally Posted by hasana

Maybe it is harrassment or should I click the report cheating? A bug maybe? Right click on player and report for RMT? Leaving a suggestion?

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If a mentor (or any other player) has been a dick to you or been toxic to you, that's harrassment. No need to pretend like the options don't cover the reasoning for report.

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that OP and their friend need to spend less time spamming with pseudo-intellectual fallacies and significantly more on self-critiquing how they approach/converse with others. When your confirmation bias reaches this level of extreme, the problem isn't with others; it's with you.

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I would be very grateful if you would not resort to the victim blaming.
Because of this vicious practice, I have repeatedly found myself in a situation where my groupmates refused to kick a mentor who was rude to them. Perhaps they also thought "it's our fault".

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that OP and their friend need to spend less time spamming with pseudo-intellectual fallacies and significantly more on self-critiquing how they approach/converse with others. When your confirmation bias reaches this level of extreme, the problem isn't with others; it's with you.

Regardless, playing a perpetual blame game doesn't accomplish anything. If you feel a mentor—or anyone for that matter—has crossed a line, then report them. All of the tools you need to solve the problem are there, and easily accessible to everyone.

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All this, of course, sounds good, but no. When a mentor says that mechanics was failed because half of the raid alliance are French, is it my fault? Not. When a mentor, insults novices calling them idiots. Is it my fault? Not. And finally, when do the GMs themselves propose me to discuss the problem on the forum after one of my reports, it’s convenient for you to turn a blind eye to this and repeat the same thing about reporting. Reports will not change the system. Therefore, I will discuss it on the forum.

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Originally Posted by Neoom

If a mentor (or any other player) has been a dick to you or been toxic to you, that's harrassment. No need to pretend like the options don't cover the reasoning for report.

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But it only works when the player is badmouthing there is no option to report a mentor like described in OP post where he queues for mentor roulette and leaves because he doesn't get what he wants.

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Originally Posted by hasana

But it only works when the player is badmouthing there is no option to report a mentor like described in OP post where he queues for mentor roulette and leaves because he doesn't get what he wants.

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The mentor already gets a penalty for leaving, the 30 min timeout, and if I'm not wrong it will grow longer if you keep leaving. Would you report everyone who leaves? Say a player that isnt a sprout or returner leaves Aurum Vale, you report them right?

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Originally Posted by hasana

But it only works when the player is badmouthing there is no option to report a mentor like described in OP post where he queues for mentor roulette and leaves because he doesn't get what he wants.

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By the way, this is a good idea. If we had a separate reputation system for mentors and a separate reporting system, everything would be easier. Because when these people break the rules, they suddenly become "players like the others", and when they get their privileges, they are rise above the rest.

It is highly unlikely that players will support the idea of sorting likes.
People are lazy, and to complicate the system means increasing the number of clicks for lazy people. This can lead to the fact that players generally cease to give recommendations - this is already happening at expert roulettes.

A working blacklist, in which you can put a toxic player in and never get into roulette with him again, is a fairly simple solution.

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Originally Posted by hasana

But it only works when the player is badmouthing there is no option to report a mentor like described in OP post where he queues for mentor roulette and leaves because he doesn't get what he wants.

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That's because leaving instances and taking the appropriate penalty is not against the rules and it's not even breaking normal player etiquette. You also can't know their intent or whether they are using mentor roulette.

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Originally Posted by SoranRigel

I would be very grateful if you would not resort to the victim blaming.
Because of this vicious practice, I have repeatedly found myself in a situation where my groupmates refused to kick a mentor who was rude to them. Perhaps they also thought "it's our fault".

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So you found yourself in a situation where other people in the party did not find the mentor to be a problem, only you found the mentor to be a problem? Maybe the mentor wasn't the problem then? Takes 50% to kick someone out of a party. Only 2 people needed in a party of 4, the 1 who initiated the kick and 1 other. 4 needed in a party of 8, the 1 who initiated the kick and 3 others. It's a good thing it takes more than 1 person one to kick someone.

This thread has turned into a complete joke.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

So you found yourself in a situation where other people in the party did not find the mentor to be a problem, only you found the mentor to be a problem? Maybe the mentor wasn't the problem then?

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If this gaming community is so tolerant of toxic behavior, this is also a problem.

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Originally Posted by SoranRigel

If this gaming community is so tolerant of toxic behavior, this is also a problem.

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We don't know what happened so we don't know that the behavior was rude let alone toxic.

Could it be you were overly sensitive to whatever happened?

Again, we don't know. We weren't there. We do know that the rest of the group didn't agree with you.

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that OP and their friend need to spend less time spamming with pseudo-intellectual fallacies and significantly more on self-critiquing how they approach/converse with others. When your confirmation bias reaches this level of extreme, the problem isn't with others; it's with you.

Regardless, playing a perpetual blame game doesn't accomplish anything. If you feel a mentor—or anyone for that matter—has crossed a line, then report them. All of the tools you need to solve the problem are there, and easily accessible to everyone.

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Originally Posted by SoranRigel

I would be very grateful if you would not resort to the victim blaming.

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Lmfao. Today I learned that critiquing somebody's argumentation method and conversational gaffes is "victim blaming". You are becoming a meme at this point. It must suck to have paper-thin skin.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

We don't know what happened so we don't know that the behavior was rude let alone toxic.

Could it be you were overly sensitive to whatever happened?

Again, we don't know. We weren't there. We do know that the rest of the group didn't agree with you.

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It`s simple. If someone says to you «You 're an idiot» or «*** you» will you be insensitive? Or (different people have different kinks) do you like it? Maybe in some culture these are polite words? Let me doubt on this point. :)
Of course, it`s possible not to believe in examples of unsuccessful communication with mentors (not by the players fault). But it works both ways.:) Thus, evidence about good and understanding mentors can be questionable. Because... «Again, we don't know. We weren't there»© Sophists invented these techniques a long time ago. :)
It would be more reasonable to proceed from the thesis "there are non-toxic mentors, but there are toxic and indifferent mentors - this is a problem." There are problems in the system. What decisions? This is a real topic of discussion. Single reports on rough mentors, as said above, do not give results.

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Originally Posted by Tamhas

Single reports on rough mentors, as said above, do not give results.

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Maybe the report system as a whole is flawed then?

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Originally Posted by Tamhas

Single reports on rough mentors, as said above, do not give results.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Maybe the report system as a whole is flawed then?

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I mean, if basic reporting of bad actors is overall being ignored by SE, what makes any of you people think suggesting improvements to the commendation system will ever be heard or implemented? Sounds to me like people are shouting into the wind a bit.

Thanks to some comments, I'm even more convinced that these thoroughly rotten orders must be changed.
Immediately.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Maybe the report system as a whole is flawed then?

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Exactly.
For example, now, when sending a report, the player does not receive any feedback.
We do not know if administrative measures have been taken.
We don’t know anything at all. The reports go into the void, we get automatic "add his to blacklist" tips.

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Originally Posted by SoranRigel

Thanks to some comments, I'm even more convinced that these thoroughly rotten orders must be changed.
Immediately.

For example, now, when sending a report, the player does not receive any feedback.
We do not know if administrative measures have been taken.
We don’t know anything at all. The reports go into the void, we get automatic "add his to blacklist" tips.

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To be fair, this is standard practice in ALL online videogames. There are legal ramifications for SE if they are divulging to you details of a specific action against another private player. You could take those details, post them to social media, and start a "haha" dogpiling ridicule campaign against that player. Also, the TOS clearly states that they will not share account action details of a player with the public.

You will NEVER get this to change and honestly it shouldn't be changed. You have no right to learning actions taken against another private player. Imagine the type of world we'd live in if SE were to post "Hey everyone, we banned @SoranRigel for X, Y, Z. Thanks for the reports!" It would be a clusterf*ck.

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

You have no right to learning actions taken against another private player.

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Depends.
You 're not quite right to argue that in other games, administrators don 't inform players about penalties.
In Aion, LOTRO, Lineage II, Black Desert Online they regularly publish a list of players who have been banned (in some cases, indicating the term of the ban).
If a nickname is published, you can't learn no more real data about this person.

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Originally Posted by SoranRigel

Depends.
You 're not quite right to argue that in other games, administrators don 't inform players about penalties.
In Aion, LOTRO, Lineage II, Black Desert Online they regularly publish a list of players who have been banned (in some cases, indicating the term of the ban).
If a nickname is published, you can't learn no more real data about this person.

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So you want a public list of shame? That's what you want? Even in games like Overwatch or just general PS4 report system NEVER tells the name/nickname anything of that matter of the player you reported, so if you reported say 5 players, you wont know which one got the actions against them of the 5. So when you get a pop up like in OW ''Player you have been reported has received a penalty'' doesn't tell you personally who, but still tells you it didn't fall into a void. That's more human than a list of shame that is public!
And no before you turn this against me again like last pages, I'm in no way scared of being in that list, since my interaction in game is ''Hi! and ''ggwp!'' so I can't end up there :) So personally to me it's not a threat, I just don't think it's the right way to go.

You are "lucky".
My last mentor roulettes all are filling groups who don't need mentoring at all.

By the way, do mentors who have a "bad day" think that there may be a person with disabilities on the other side of the screen?

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Originally Posted by RajNish

By the way, do mentors who have a "bad day" think that there may be a person with disabilities on the other side of the screen?

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By the way, do sprouts who have a "bad day" think that there may be a mentor with disabilities on the other side of the screen? Strange how some people so far have used this as a reason to attack mentors and their actions, but the opposite hasn't been rarely mentioned. ._. There are two sides to every coin, making assumptions on either side is not the way to solve that. Every situation has its own circumstances, the large amount of generalizations going on in this thread has been...disheartening.

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Originally Posted by Nixxa

By the way, do sprouts who have a "bad day" think that there may be a mentor with disabilities on the other side of the screen? Strange how some people so far have used this as a reason to attack mentors and their actions, but the opposite hasn't been rarely mentioned. ._. There are two sides to every coin, making assumptions on either side is not the way to solve that. Every situation has its own circumstances, the large amount of generalizations going on in this thread has been...disheartening.

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I can’t speak for all the sprouts, but as a person who has friends with disabilities and had co-players with disabilities in the raid team (in the previous game), I can say about myself, yes, I think about such players. And I know that every "idiot" can hurt such a person.

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Originally Posted by SoranRigel

We don’t know anything at all. The reports go into the void, we get automatic "add his to blacklist" tips.

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These tips would be helpful if a blacklist could really eliminate the chance of meeting this player. However, it does not work like in other games. You may not see chat messages, but you will see trolling through game actions, for example. Most likely, the changes to the blacklist function could solve most of these problems and the number of reports would be significantly reduced, except in special cases.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

And I know that every "idiot" can hurt such a person.

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An every "idiot" can hurt any person, regardless of their nationality and language, as well as physical capabilities.

That's why it's so strange for me to see suggestions here that in a situation where player X (mentor or not) insults player Y, it's player Y's fault, and player X just had a "bad day".
An insult is an insult, by words or actions, but unfortunately, not all of them can be a reason for a report.

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Originally Posted by SoranRigel

player X (mentor or not) insults player Y, it's player Y's fault, and player X just had a "bad day".

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An insult should be reported and handled by the gamemasters accordingly, I think it's safe to say noone would argue that.
But as it was stated: plain leaving content as a mentor (without saying a word) is not an insult in any kind of way and should not be reportable. The person is taking the 30min penalty for leaving which is how it is intended by the devs. Everyone should just leave it at that and move on.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

The person is taking the 30min penalty for leaving which is how it is intended by the devs. Everyone should just leave it at that and move on.

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First of all, I don 't understand what 's going on here a "leaving content". I have never said that "leaving" is a problem that requires an immediate solution.
I spoke of insults with words and actions (such as refusing to roll so that other people would abandon it; Or pull large groups of mobs without considering the capabilities of the healer and dd; Or failure to perform mechanics by (de)mentors and attempts to sabotage, etc., there are many examples of such actions).

Second, I think a fine of 30 minutes is even an excessive measure. For example, in SWTOR, the fine was 15 minutes. Given that groups are dialled automatically, this should not be a big problem.

By the way, it also seems strange to me that many players (and even more so mentors) don't know how to express their thoughts without the use of casing vocabulary, accusations and value judgements. No matter how wrong an opponent is, there are many ways to explain with him in a human way.
Of course, if there is enough a vocabulary.

Still going ?
In my opinion the majority of sprouts and returner are toxic. And Mentors are suffering from this.
Funny or not ? You cant prove me wrong because i made a statement wich cant be checked. Furthermore my statement leaves yOu only the option of supporting me or supporting toxic behavior. That is very manipulative . Next is what makes your opinion true or even more important then mine or anyone elses?

If i may put my two cents into this, i Honestly just don't understand how someone has the time to become a Mentor, i would love to be a mentor but coms are not as easy to come by as one might think, im a scholar healer, and a damn good one too if you talk to anyone i've ever healed for but coms can only be gotten at random and not by anyone you really know because basically only strangers give you them and most people don't bother with it anymore, so if someone has that many coms then they have earned the right to be called a mentor. though some might not deserve it, it sucks that you have gotten crappy mentors though, i would encourage you to look around for a progression FC that caters to People who want to learn mechs for every dungeon, raid, trial, etc. there is at least a few on just about every server im sure, so maybe try that?

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

Still going ?
In my opinion the majority of sprouts and returner are toxic. And Mentors are suffering from this.
Funny or not ? You cant prove me wrong because i made a statement wich cant be checked. Furthermore my statement leaves yOu only the option of supporting me or supporting toxic behavior. That is very manipulative . Next is what makes your opinion true or even more important then mine or anyone elses?

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When the community as a whole is toxic, everyone suffers. All this is very symptomatic in fact. There is no healthy equality, a lot of elitism, passive and active aggression, greed and selfishness.

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Originally Posted by Wiccan692015

and most people don't bother with it anymore

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This. The commendation is not the parameter by which it is worth evaluating whether a player can be a mentor or not. But, unfortunately, we have neither a specific system nor parameters for this. Also, no one can say how many reports must be received so that the player ceases to be a mentor. All this is not clear and too confusing.

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Originally Posted by Wiccan692015

People who want to learn mechs for every dungeon, raid, trial, etc. there is at least a few on just about every server im sure, so maybe try that?

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Yes, that’s a very good idea. At the moment, I play with several people I know. This greatly reduces the chance of meeting strange people in a group of 4 players at least. But to be honest, I am not very happy about voluntary isolation.

Yes, that’s a very good idea. At the moment, I play with several people I know. This greatly reduces the chance of meeting strange people in a group of 4 players at least. But to be honest, I am not very happy about voluntary isolation.[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean about voluntary Isolation, but sadly its the only way to guarantee that you are getting a group of smart people who listen and help each other to learn the content properly without interference from people who think they know everything but they really know not much at all about anything and slow others down......

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Originally Posted by RajNish

When the community as a whole is toxic, everyone suffers. All this is very symptomatic in fact. There is no healthy equality, a lot of elitism, passive and active aggression, greed and selfishness.

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Even tho I am not the most social person and usually stay for myself, I think this community in general is very polite and helpful. Most people at least try to help or guide you somewhere you might find help/information.
And even tho I cringe a lot about NN, I guess ppl use it frequently bc they find it helpful or like the social aspect about it.

The negative things you just mentioned are generally frowned upon by every sub-comm this game has, but you always find a few bad apples. Doesn't mean it's fair to generalize that much.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

When the community as a whole is toxic, everyone suffers. All this is very symptomatic in fact. There is no healthy equality, a lot of elitism, passive and active aggression, greed and selfishness.

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I say your are selfish, i say you are elitist. You say this is "xxx" and must be true because "yyy" wich cant be checked. You behave as if you were the prosecutor and judge in one person. You make general statements and avoid my and others questions. Besides what you are refering to sounds more like social problem and is so generally held that you could apply this to everything in our society. So can we now talk about why you think that the majority of mentors are toxic or is this just "vent against the mentor" thread now and we just trash talk a spezific player group?

Next is the voluntary Isolation: Every single player has his knicks and knacks and even when no one is doing something wrong we dont like each other. Also every player does things at diffrent pace, with diffrent viewpoints and so on. Thats reality. I dont play Mentor roulette or in PF Groups because i dont like some player behavior. So this makes the comm toxic ? I expect player to look guides before going in the PF and know what they are doing, i expect players to be good at their job - does this apply as default? No.Why should this be so? What makes me or you so god damn special that we can demand this ? I dont see your reasons besides " i am right and you are wrong".

Player X starts talking aloud about a problem that worries many people (watch the discussion first, with all links), and says he just wants to play quietly.
Player Y: "I say your are selfish, i say you are elitist".

A fine example of toxicity, really.

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Originally Posted by Wiccan692015

I know what you mean about voluntary Isolation, but sadly its the only way to guarantee that you are getting a group of smart people who listen and help each other to learn the content properly without interference from people who think they know everything but they really know not much at all about anything and slow others down......

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Right. You have very accurately said. I have nothing more to add.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Even tho I am not the most social person and usually stay for myself, I think this community in general is very polite and helpful. Most people at least try to help or guide you somewhere you might find help/information.

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Up to 50 lvl, maybe. But on 70 the strange begins. Here is an example. Ala Mhigo. Tank mentor, in the group, there are two newcomers. And it is clear that they have no idea what to do. He takes a large pool, but the DPS is very low. Wipe. Here it would be nice to stop, explain tactics and go more carefully. But he again makes a large pool without saying a word.

Is it toxic? I think yes. He does not care about the group. All he wants is to quickly finish the dungeon and get out of there. Although, as a mentor, he could just slow down a bit, put marks at least. It seems to be nothing offensive, right? But his actions are completely selfish and he does not care what happens to the group. There is absolutely nothing to write a report on. It's his choice. But this does not combine with the concepts of "helpful" and "etiquette".

Help can be completely different. Not so long ago, I met a player who, it seemed to me, was trying to help and gave advice on how to increase DPS. But before the last boss pool, he said that none of the group deserved his recommendation. What for? This is not something that can encourage people to learn their job better.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

The negative things you just mentioned are generally frowned upon by every sub-comm this game has, but you always find a few bad apples. Doesn't mean it's fair to generalize that much.

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In fact, I judge the repeatability of such actions. This does not mean that I have not met good mentors and players. And, as I said above, I am very grateful to these people. But, unfortunately, there was more sad experience. Pulls ahead of the tank, ignoring the mechanics, trolling. Why then wear a crown? After all, they spoil not only their reputation.

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

I say your are selfish, i say you are elitist. You say this is "xxx" and must be true because "yyy" wich cant be checked. You behave as if you were the prosecutor and judge in one person. You make general statements and avoid my and others questions. Besides what you are refering to sounds more like social problem and is so generally held that you could apply this to everything in our society. So can we now talk about why you think that the majority of mentors are toxic or is this just "vent against the mentor" thread now and we just trash talk a spezific player group?

Next is the voluntary Isolation: Every single player has his knicks and knacks and even when no one is doing something wrong we dont like each other. Also every player does things at diffrent pace, with diffrent viewpoints and so on. Thats reality. I dont play Mentor roulette or in PF Groups because i dont like some player behavior. So this makes the comm toxic ? I expect player to look guides before going in the PF and know what they are doing, i expect players to be good at their job - does this apply as default? No.Why should this be so? What makes me or you so god damn special that we can demand this ? I dont see your reasons besides " i am right and you are wrong".

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I already answered your comments when they were constructive. And honestly, I do not want to swear with you. As the Buddha said: “Take yours to yourself” and do whatever you want with it.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Is it toxic? I think yes. He does not care about the group. All he wants is to quickly finish the dungeon and get out of there. Although, as a mentor, he could just slow down a bit, put marks at least. It seems to be nothing offensive, right? But his actions are completely selfish and he does not care what happens to the group. There is absolutely nothing to write a report on. It's his choice. But this does not combine with the concepts of "helpful" and "etiquette".

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I do not think this behaviour is toxic. Being silent, is neither rude nor toxic nor abusive or anything.
If someone in the group had a question or wanted help, they could have asked as well. Unsolicited advice is most of the times answered with unfriendly comments or ignored completely, so I definetly understand why mentors/players just don't talk and rather have others figure out stuff on their own.
You can be helpful and have etiquette when being approached and asked something. No mentor should feel compelled to move out of their way and push their advice or help onto someone. Funny enough a lot of times ppl complain about 'too pushy' mentors that want them to play their way and are forcing 'their playstyle' onto others. lmao

In the end this is just a difference of opinion, but claiming someone who remains silent is toxic is... well, obv SE does not find this toxic so you cannot report it and I agree with this sentiment.



You don't know about these mentors that stay silent. Maybe they did give unsolicited advice before and got toxic sprouts that got angry about being 'told how to play' instead of being left so they could find out on their own? There are bad apples on both sides so I find it rather close-minded to claim it's only ever mentors who are at fault.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Up to 50 lvl, maybe. But on 70 the strange begins. Here is an example. Ala Mhigo. Tank mentor, in the group, there are two newcomers. And it is clear that they have no idea what to do. He takes a large pool, but the DPS is very low. Wipe. Here it would be nice to stop, explain tactics and go more carefully. But he again makes a large pool without saying a word.

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First of all, there is no ''tactics'' to normal big pulls in dungeons. Second of all, every mentor who remains silent has learned it the hard way, people go out of their way to yell back at you when you helped without being asked. So after it keeps happening, they learn to wait so people ask for help, since then they want it. Most times unwanted help gets bad mouthing from people. Sure they could have said ''If you need help ask'' but people need to learn how. to. ask. HELP.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

You don't know about these mentors that stay silent. Maybe they did give unsolicited advice before and got toxic sprouts that got angry about being 'told how to play' instead of being left so they could find out on their own? There are bad apples on both sides so I find it rather close-minded to claim it's only ever mentors who are at fault.

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I was not talking about silence. Pulls ahead of the tank, ignoring group capabilities, ignoring the mechanics, trolling, this is toxic. And, unfortunately, such actions are most noticeable if the player with the crown does it. This tank could be silent, but at least stop and think, the group can’t cope, make the pulls smaller.