DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

That's also not a good example considering it was a year ago and they admitted to giving out a lot of early bans. They are far more lenient on the issue. Got another example these past 3 months?

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Nope, but you can test it in-game for us if you really believe the things you claim or imply. The rest of us would love to find out what happens, be it nothing at all or something like a ban. Do something similar to that old example, where you gloat and somewhat mock another person to get the GM involved. Then you'll have the opportunity to prove parsing means nothing. Admit to the GM about the use and that you are fully aware that they, from what you believe, will not have the right to do anything bad just because of your use of a third party program that parses. It's the same situation that would get you involved with the GM, so we'd know there wouldn't be too many unknown variables at play.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Nope, but you can test it in-game for us if you really believe the things you claim or imply. The rest of us would love to find out what happens, be it nothing at all or something like a ban. Do something similar to that old example, where you gloat and somewhat mock another person to get the GM involved. Then you'll have the opportunity to prove parsing means nothing. Admit to the GM about the use and that you are fully aware that they, from what you believe, will not have the right to do anything bad just because of your use of a third party program that parses. It's the same situation that would get you involved with the GM, so we'd know there wouldn't be too many unknown variables at play.

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In what you're asking them to do, it's not the parser that would get them banned... it's using it to harass/degrade other players that would get them banned. =/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Nope, but you can test it in-game for us

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Or you can just to go the DPS sub forum and see how many parses are posted on a daily basis with no repercussions.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

In what you're asking them to do, it's not the parser that would get them banned... it's using it to harass/degrade other players that would get them banned. =/

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Indeed. This is argument at hand though. Gloating is not a bannable offense by itself. Don't you think that it's odd that suddenly because it's involving a parser (a third party program) that you could suddenly get banned? ;) The gloating is what caused someone to bother reporting you (in that if you didn't gloat, they wouldn't take offense to it) and is usually why people will get caught doing something they shouldn't. The GMs potential actions however is a direct result of you having the parser. It's the primary focus of why they can take action against you. If parsers were officially accepted, they wouldn't be able to do the same thing so easily. That's my point on the matter. Parsers are why severe actions could take place, they just typically aren't the reason someone felt the need to report you (it was your bad behavior that generally does that).

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

I can provide examples of people misusing vote kick, thats pretty irrelevant to the fact that it still serves it's purpose and is used appropriately in majority cases. The fact is that fodder content like primals, dungeons don't have DPS checks that are difficult to meet because everyone outgears content by 20-40 ilvls. As such DPS optimization is not a requirement to clear the content so people won't construct their party requirements for optimization 99 times out of a 100. The 'wall' that you're talking about only exists for relevant content which you and majority of the people in this thread don't even pursue until you overgear the content and it's nerfed.

You can keep believing that's its not misused because of ToS. Like I said, lack of perspective will lead your reasoning towards that.

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You do realize that games like WoW, use ilvl as well right? Yet, the more important thing, which is what I think most can agree with, is actual DPS output. Why would people rely on ilvl when actual numbers are better examples of potential? Not a bad thing on its own, but people have always used it when they can to do even the simplest content in any MMORPG. People want things to be fast and easy. They'll expect unreasonable requirements to do things. I've seen it firsthand... in all content and in nearly every similar type of MMORPG I've played or heard of. Heck, we see it everytime new content is released. People mocking others or expecting them to know CT fights on first day release. We always always encounter players being stupid to show off in some way, or to make things unreasonable for others. It's not TOO bad here, due to circumstance, but there's not much reason to simply add another thing for others to despise their peers over.

Unless this is your first MMORPG or you haven't been around the genre for more than several years, it's surprising you wouldn't have seen it yourself... unless you were one of those people or oblivious to it. Edit: Err wait... misunderstood that misuse comment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Or you can just to go the DPS sub forum and see how many parses are posted on a daily basis with no repercussions.

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Forums are forums. There's a lot less personal responsibility involved, because it is not the game itself. For example, I can claim I use bots in this game here and nothing will happen to me in-game. It might cause a temp ban from the forums though, depending on what's going on. These are not governed by the GMs you will encounter in-game. Do it in-game, in the same manner I said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

There still hasn't been an explanation as to why dps aren't held individually to the same basic expectations as tanks and healers.

Tanks and healers learn very quickly in this game that you need to play your job at least semi-competently, failure is usually met with a wipe (of course there are still exceptions and these exceptions are immediately ousted in groups).

But DPS literally get a free pass. Or if they're really bad they can have the rest of the group carry them and can justify playing poorly because they're protected by the ToS? No one has yet to explain how that makes sense.

I just think it's silly 9 times out of 10 no one is paying attention to a specific person, I could roll into dungeons on literally any class and play stupidly and it's okay? "I'll just spam full thrust combos on drg, or just spam cast heavy shot and barely dot things on bard, maybe I'll go on my potato blm and cast blizzard for the entire dungeon, but good golly gosh I hope no one triggers me and says my dps is bad coz I'll just report them! "

I really hope that at least gets through to someone because that's not exactly far from an exaggeration....

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I had not thought of it from that perspective and I only play my tank or healer. BLM is realistically retired because I wont wait int he queue. That is a very fair point and that is why no one is talking to you, there is not counter to your point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

You do realize that games like WoW, use ilvl as well right? Yet, the more important thing, which is what I think most can agree with, is actual DPS output. Why would people rely on ilvl when actual numbers are better examples of potential? Not a bad thing on its own, but people have always used it when they can to do even the simplest content in any MMORPG. People want things to be fast and easy. They'll expect unreasonable requirements to do things. I've seen it firsthand... in all content. Heck, we see it everytime new content is released. People mocking others or expecting them to know CT fights on first day release. We always always encounter players being stupid to show off in some way, or to make things unreasonable for others.

Unless this is your first MMORPG or you haven't been around the genre for more than several years, it's surprising you wouldn't have seen it yourself... unless you were one of those people or oblivious to it.



Forums are forums. There's a lot less personal responsibility involved, because it is not the game itself. For example, I can claim I use bots in this game here and nothing will happen to me in-game. It might cause a temp ban from the forums though, depending on what's going on. These are not governed by the GMs you will encounter in-game. Do it in-game, in the same manner I said.

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The fact is again, these fights do not require DPS optimization to complete when you overgear them. As such, majority parties will not be setting their party requirements as such. Hence the reason you don't see an i130 requirement Titan HM, nor an i130 Shiva and any primal/dungeon requirement. Once you've reduced your argument to speculation, it's really not even a conversation anymore.

"Forums are forums". But it is a parse of the game itself. Tangible proof that you are using the program.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The fact is again, these fights do not require DPS optimization to complete when you overgear them. As such, majority parties will not be setting their party requirements as such. Hence the reason you don't see an i130 requirement Titan HM, nor an i130 Shiva and any primal/dungeon requirement. Once you've reduced your argument to speculation, it's really not even a conversation anymore.

"Forums are forums". But it is a parse of the game itself. Tangible proof that you are using the program.

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Unfortunately, our arguments are both based on at least some speculations. I speak from factual history though on player conduct repeating itself if given the opportunity, but it is still at least some speculation to claim it would happen here. Likewise, it is for you as well to claim it wouldn't. It is easier to mask unreasonable requirements when you state them in ways that don't clearly imply them. If you did, it'd be like the example I said of people expecting everyone to know how to clear CT raids in the first day. Most of us would agree, those idiots expect more than they should. Saying "must do X DPS" is a lot more forgiving of ridicule by your peers than it is to state the ilvl, which is also why that will take the place of ilvl requirements we currently have in most situations with players.

It is not enough proof to take action on, is the point. Like I said, I could claim I bot/hack/buy gil/etc in the game here. Nothing will happen to me in-game because there's a lot less personal responsibility involved when dealing with your actions here and your actions in-game. They could however, use that as justification to my being caught in-game if misused as a means to counter any negligence I want to show as defense. They're not going to go out of their way to catch you on this though, as the severity of it being expressed in-game is different from being expressed on a forum. This is how procedures and consequences work on differing formats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Unfortunately, our arguments are both based on at least some speculations.

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Your examples are anomalies. My examples contain what is majority accepted. Which would suggest your argument is pretty weak. The reason we don't see unrealistic expectations like i130 required dungeons,primals or what have you is because the majority have an understanding of the required DPS to complete an instance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

It is not enough proof to take action on, is the point. Like I said, I could claim I bot/hack/buy gil/etc in the game here.

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Go ahead and claim it, include the site and/or bot you buy from/use and lemme know how that goes for you.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Go ahead and claim it, include the site and/or bot you buy from/use and lemme know how that goes for you.

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The site mentioned is what will get you banned from the forums. Likewise, pointing out the exact site for parsing will probably do the same, if not just delete the thread. So what? We all know admitting to use of bots and such will get you banned if admitted to in the game (along with sufficient evidence or reason to do this). No outside proof needed on that one. You, however, keep implying that admitting to parsing in the game won't, this includes admitting to a GM about it (and finding out for proof whether or not they will ban you for it). So... balls in your court. Gonna do it?

WoW allowed meters. The only thing that actually annoyed me was when children(giving adults the benefit of the doubt...too generous) would spam them too often...But really, they were just proud of how well they were performing, and if that made them feel good I could tolerate it. It was extremely rare to witness anything like harassment. I think it is perfectly valid to post them after a failed or successful boss attempt. If your performance was so poor it would embarrass you, you need to own it and make changes and do better. The meters are working as intended IMHO in that case. Just being at the bottom is not embarrassing , performing at half of what you gear and level suggests, is, and I feel the people you are grouping with deserve to know if you are that bad. As someone else so eloquently said before, Tank and healer performance is readily available in the game for all to see and they have to own it, why doesn't DPS?

I don't understand the "DPS optimization doesn't matter outside of raid settings" argument at all. No one says it's okay for a tank to not be able to hold hate or to take the boss for a walk in low-level content. No one says it's okay for a healer to not Protect/Stoneskin or not heal effectively in low-level content.

A DPS' job is to deal damage. If they are not doing damage appropriate to the level of gear they are wearing, they are not doing their job. Period.

Why is this considered acceptable?

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

I don't understand the "DPS optimization doesn't matter outside of raid settings" argument at all. No one says it's okay for a tank to not be able to hold hate or to take the boss for a walk in low-level content. No one says it's okay for a healer to not Protect/Stoneskin or not heal effectively in low-level content.

A DPS' job is to deal damage. If they are not doing damage appropriate to the level of gear they are wearing, they are not doing their job. Period.

Why is this considered acceptable?

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Because we can't have anybody with hurt feelings.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

Because we can't have any DPS with hurt feelings.

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Fixed it a lil. As a WHM I can get kicked, yelled at, and harassed if I don't do my job, just like a tank can. As others have said, it isn't fair that dps can just slide by under everyones radar since there is no way to legally tell them they are doing poor dps. DPS players know this -- which is why you'll see people having sub 200 numbers in i130 gear even in easy content like WoD...

I see this all the time in experts if I PUG them (hardly ever) -- tank does a rather large pull, I set up to Holy spam, PoM Holy, but the group that normally would be dead in 30-35 secs stays alive for well over a minute. Examine dps - they're in i130 -- so obviously it isn't a gear issue... but god forbid I try to point out rotations...(this using BLM for context). There's no bar to hold DPS to in this game, sadly, that can be used as a metric to gauge performance :(

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

I had not thought of it from that perspective and I only play my tank or healer. BLM is realistically retired because I wont wait int he queue. That is a very fair point and that is why no one is talking to you, there is not counter to your point.

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Oh hell yeah. I've been saying that since page 5 on this thread and I'm a DPS main, haha. Didn't get a response until I started getting more blunt and even then it was the standard "qq toxic community" response. Hell, Massterchef said the exact same thing I did (calling the heal/tank issue a double standard) a few pages back and was met with nonsensical arguments the entire ride through.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

I don't understand the "DPS optimization doesn't matter outside of raid settings" argument at all. No one says it's okay for a tank to not be able to hold hate or to take the boss for a walk in low-level content. No one says it's okay for a healer to not Protect/Stoneskin or not heal effectively in low-level content.

A DPS' job is to deal damage. If they are not doing damage appropriate to the level of gear they are wearing, they are not doing their job. Period.

Why is this considered acceptable?

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It's unfortunately acceptable because it's the least impacting role. Mind you, the majority of content in this game can be beaten by mediocre players regardless of role (or perhaps, some mediocre players for certain endgame content that isn't max tier). At this point in time, would you really take the time of kicking a bad DPS that has little impact on your actual progress of the instance you've ran at least 50 times already? We already let people slide sometimes in content, for example in LotA. I've had healers, tanks, and dps AFK from start to finish at the starting point. The reason? It's impossible to kick them in a rush group that just wants to get things done. Initial timer, mid-combat, and loot still being rolled on prevents kicking.

The only notable time you'd really care about output is actual endgame max tier (see actually difficult) content. Tanking and healing requires a lot more personal responsibility, hence why they stand out the most. DPS are a dime a dozen. In those cases, people already parse, so responsibility is there on the DPS end. It's not a matter of parsers saving people from this, it's the content at hand. If every single thing required a strict DPS check, FFXIV wouldn't be the open arms game it is. That's why it's acceptable.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

Oh hell yeah. I've been saying that since page 5 on this thread and I'm a DPS main, haha. Didn't get a response until I started getting more blunt and even then it was the standard "qq toxic community" response. Hell, Massterchef said the exact same thing I did (calling the heal/tank issue a double standard) a few pages back and was met with nonsensical arguments the entire ride through.

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The statement I shared in this post actually applies to your inquiry as well. It's the design of the game, which has nothing to do with parsers. Players that are looking to use parsers for this purpose outside of progressive max tier content are essentially going on a witch hunt.

I think we can all clearly see a few facts:

- There are 6 DPS jobs to 4 tank/healers in total. This generally means that there will be a larger number of people who play DPS roles.
- Coil (endgame) is only really done by a really small percentage of the playerbase. Like maybe 5 - 8% (pulling numbers out of my ass here, it could be smaller for all we know)
- In the interest of preserving the feelings of the larger portion of the playerbase (DPS players who do not raid or do anything considered "hard", or requires DPS optimization), hence why DPS gets a free slide from underperforming

Barring Coil, you'll find that most content requires like 1 or 2 good DPS players, and these few tend to be more than enough to put up for weight of the other sub-par DPS players. Perhaps Yoshi-P already had this in mind when he came up with raids like the CT series. You can clearly see it even in design - there's 2 DPS players per light party, not just because DPS players are the majority, but because both players combined usually only end up having to hit a lower DPS threshold.

Tanks/healers still happen to be the rarer of the few, and for some reason Yoshi-P decides it's okay to let the DPS players rag on them for underperforming. Then we fall into a spiral where said tanks/healers become demotivated, and we get even less of them in circulation. Perhaps we all need to look inside and realize that until people embrace improvement and generally decent human behaviour, Yoshi-P won't give us the parsers we want.

I am all for parsers. I am all for advocating better play. Fact, I use parsers myself, and I do get a certain joy when I outperform everyone else. But the only time I care about my numbers is Coil. Outside of that, anything goes.

But until the community can embrace calls for improvement as an actual call for improvement, and work within themselves to improve and go to a higher level, rather than treating every little thing as an insult, or a personal attack, we are going nowhere, and official parsers will never see the light of day. I play on a JP server, and I generally never see this issue, except within the EN players.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

If we do get parsers, I hope they are as cool as this one.

http://i.imgur.com/F8irO1M.jpg



That's just real nice.

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Warcraft Logs is an amazing tool for sure. If you care to read my experience with WCL, I'll have a box below, be warned I'm a rambler

Yay I finally learned how to make these boxes!

When I started WoD raiding progression, the guild I joined was terrible. I had just got my Marksman Hunter to 100 and i630, and my friend was playing a Destruction Warlock which at the time was a HORRIBLE class to do raid progression with. We were both constantly top DPS by an incredible margin.

Weeks later I found out how to set up WCL and brought it up with the officers. After a couple of nights the raid leaders were impressed with the tool and I was promoted. After that we saw vast improvements with the other members.

One particular case I remember is a Demonology Warlock was constantly under-performing and couldn't figure out why. I looked through several of his WCL tab, found out exactly what the issue was (improper use of Molten Core procs with Demonbolt talent and poor Hand of Gul'dan uptime) by talking with more experienced Warlocks. The next raid week I had this warlock competitive with the other top DPS of the guild

I've even used this tool to compare myself to other Hunters and that pushed me to do research to find out WHY my performance was only half that of other Hunters in the same iLvl bracket. Before I quit to play 14 again, I was still dominating ST fights but was proud to see I was getting stomped in AoE fights (which was the vast majority of Blackrock Foundry fights)

If you got this far I thank you for reading the words of a rambler

Rambling aside, I fully support parsers for 14. In my views the positives outweigh the negatives, yes people are going to whine and complain about DPS, but in reality, they're already complaining about other things you and other people are doing/not doing. If these people get under your skin, blacklist/report/move on please

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

The statement I shared in this post actually applies to your inquiry as well. It's the design of the game, which has nothing to do with parsers. Players that are looking to use parsers for this purpose outside of progressive max tier content are essentially going on a witch hunt.

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That's a cop-out reason though. And making a pessimistic assumption that literally everyone will be using it maliciously. That still ignores the fact that your so called "witch hunt" EXISTS in the non-progression endgame content, nevermind the actual hardcore raiding content in the game. We were also talking about how tanks and healers can get flak even for a minor fumble (lost aggro, death from unavoidable damage, etc). If a tank or healer isn't performing to standard then it's impacting even the faceroll content. The whole point is that it shouldn't be acceptable but you're saying "it is what it is, people can be malicious as all hell to tanks and healers but who cares about dps". It's not okay that we can crucify one side and ignore the other lol.

And again, I'm already not kicking the piss poor augmented ironworks dps that I'm beating on my Yagrush WHM in trivial content. But maybe a sanctioned parser can help them see that they're not performing well at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Rambling aside, I fully support parsers for 14. In my views the positives outweigh the negatives, yes people are going to whine and complain about DPS, but in reality, they're already complaining about other things you and other people are doing/not doing. If these people get under your skin, blacklist/report/move on please

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^

My solution, add a personal parser for everyone that is toggleable, and add the option (if all party members agree) to a party wide parser for fully premade parties. As, pretty much those who want the tool for progression are running in statics anyways so they would never clash with everyone against them.

PF parties can set up with or without party wide parser, stated in requirements. Don't want to be in a party with a parser? Don't join that PF party.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

It's unfortunately acceptable because it's the least impacting role. Mind you, the majority of content in this game can be beaten by mediocre players regardless of role

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That's only because the majority overgear the content when it's new. If you had played or remember before AK got nerfed, on demon wall, everyone had to play to a decent standard to be able to progress past it. There where many tanks fishing for 2/3 progression exactly because of demon wall and the bees.

Then came Pharos Sirius, which required a certain level of ability by players to clear. Which turned into Pharos vote abandon, Steps of Faith require a little bit of coordination, it is now labelld as Steps of vote abandon.

The first 3 have already been nerfed due to mediocre players in ability or disinjterest in improving to beat that challenge. A personal parser may kick them into reality that they are not performing at the standard required to clear content like that. Instead of thinking they are are then taking the easy path and complaining on the forums for nerfs.

Hell, first week of the 3.5 dungeons players where crying on the forums that they are "too hard".

When parser coming out officially, it's easy for new player or lag player to be kicked out from normal content that do no have enrage mechanic, A.K.A normal dungeons.

People will make comparison with class then the demand for change will increase, why this class low DPS why this class have higher dmg Mitigation, why this class can do more HPS and so on.

Under perform class will be left out or not needed, Just like WW Monk from WoW from last patch.

I recommended for dummy parser to help player with their rotation, but no more for that esp inside instance.

Well this is only "my opinion".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

snip

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You have to try pretty hard to fail normal dungeons in terms of DPS, even the newest dungeons. There never is or was (to my knowledge) some sort of epidemic of players being kicked from duty finder dungeon queues because their DPS was not top-tier. I highly doubt this will suddenly be the case on the off chance an official parser is introduced to the game. Will some people gloat about their numbers? You bet. There's also plenty of people who won't. There's all sorts of people out there and I'm noticing that everyone is worried about the worst case scenarios when it comes to how the community will react to parsers.

As far as job balance goes... well, yeah, if there's one job out there that severely under performs compared to other jobs, people would be less likely to take it. This isn't a new thing. Luckily for everyone here, all jobs, at least from what I've seen, perform well in this game. Summoners have it a little rough right now but they can do just fine in final coil (My static had a summoner and we made it all the way through final coil). Keep in mind, people can already analyze the jobs like this on PC. I have never seen PFs strictly stating "this job can't come". The closest thing to this is people wanting Monks for final coil due to mantra or early on where Dragoons (apparently) could not survive certain attacks in coil due to their magic resist (this was fixed). I really don't know if not letting certain jobs into PF groups is a common occurrence , so someone correct me if I'm wrong there. The devs seem pretty good about maintaining a good class balance so far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Varilae

Snip.

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I got your point mate, but I'm from World of Warcraft before where I have seen WindWalker Monk being kick from the group because of their class. New player being kicked from the normal dungeon because of bad DPS. People keep complaining why Tank DPS is far more higher than DPS class. Some people are nice but some are not, that's what I'm afraid about.

I strongly support Parser because of the boss enrage timer mechanic, but with highly strict rule and protocol to prevent bullying or harassment.
People always want to find others fault and want to boast their result, later in raid alliance chat only full with DPS log.

At this point the vast majority of people who would kick someone for a low parse would be already using a parser anyway, so might as well add a parser.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

snip

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Few things:

1: This is 14. Anything related to WoW, aside from the theme park aspect, has no comparison here. Two different games. There is virtually no classism in 14 so long as you can play the class correctly. WoW has turned into the FotM machine in terms of balancing.

2: There are "not so nice" people right now. Adding a parser doesn't change this. This isn't even an opinion anymore, it's just ignorance to the fact that people are assholes, regardless.

As a PS4 player all I want from SE is that they implement a parser that atleast will show us our own DPS. How am I and others in this same situation supposed to improve ourself or test new things without one? Seeing all those top parses on DPS Forums from the same jobs that I play makes me want to try and reach same numbers. I'm a competitive person and I try to improve in whatever I do, but its hard when you can't see if you are going forward or taking a step back. I can't just ask people that I know that parse to run content with me 24/7 just for the sake of myself. Otherwise they would soon ignore me if I kept bugging them all the time.

All I can say is the pros will outnumber the cons in this case based on my own experience if we do get one. Not once have I seen anyone shame someone publicly for low DPS in any content. Sure there are people who would belittle others and whine about numbers, but they are the same immature people that already whine about everything.

The game should at least have a personal parser. It is really hard for a new dps to know whether they're making any actual progress or compare their performance to the others. Doing the mechanics well=/=playing your class well.

It's funny to what extends SE goes to protect the pride of some dps. If a healer messes up, people die. If a tank messes up, people die. If a dps is being a wet noodle, they somehow have the idea that no one should be able to tell them something is off... although you can already tell underperforming to an extent via the enmity bar. It's a touchy subject; even if you're friendly and nice, even if you tell it only to the person themselves, some people will get really mental about someone commenting about their dps. But why pick up a dps class if you don't want to dps?

I have never ever seen anyone kick people out for lack of dps.If anything, people have asked whether they pull their rotations right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juniglee

Perhaps Yoshi-P already had this in mind when he came up with raids like the CT series. You can clearly see it even in design - there's 2 DPS players per light party, not just because DPS players are the majority, but because both players combined usually only end up having to hit a lower DPS threshold.

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I find this interesting, because as a healer, I often found myself wiping in Qarn HM (Cactus boss) and close to wiping in AK HM on the demon wall due to poor DPS, and yet it's me as the healer, having to compensate for poor DPS or lazy DPS to prevent wipes in these locations.

But of course, as some people suggest, how dare I mentioned the fact that someone's DPS is shit and they're wasting my time, you know, me being a healer I should just shut up and DPS for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

That's a cop-out reason though. And making a pessimistic assumption that literally everyone will be using it maliciously. That still ignores the fact that your so called "witch hunt" EXISTS in the non-progression endgame content, nevermind the actual hardcore raiding content in the game. We were also talking about how tanks and healers can get flak even for a minor fumble (lost aggro, death from unavoidable damage, etc). If a tank or healer isn't performing to standard then it's impacting even the faceroll content. The whole point is that it shouldn't be acceptable but you're saying "it is what it is, people can be malicious as all hell to tanks and healers but who cares about dps". It's not okay that we can crucify one side and ignore the other lol.

And again, I'm already not kicking the piss poor augmented ironworks dps that I'm beating on my Yagrush WHM in trivial content. But maybe a sanctioned parser can help them see that they're not performing well at all.

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As I said... it's the design of combat that results in DPS getting a slide usually, NOT the lack of an official parser. Think about it? What happens when you throw in MORE people to a situation (e.g. CT raids)? Your individual presence is no longer as important. In smaller content, let's say 4-man content. There is only 1 healer to keep people alive, and 1 tank to keep people alive. They have more responsibility to the party than DPS do in order to prevent death.

What if 4-man parties comprised of 1 DPS, 2 heals, and 1 tank? Lets also just assume healers can't DPS for some mysterious reason (magic!!). Who's gonna stand out there? The tank? Sure. Only 1 like normal, afterall. The healer? Probably not since that'd be WAY too much potential healing with current content. The DPS? Most definitely... that ONE DPS is on spotlight to get the target down reasonably quick. It's rarely okay to ridicule others, regardless of role. Just like the more popular people (e.g. celebrities) stand out IRL, and thus they'll have haters, so too do the roles that stand out the most. You will be judged and criticized because we, as human beings, are pitiful when it comes to that.

With the holy trinity design, it literally puts the spotlight and significant responsibility upon the tanks and healers. The DPS, in most MMORPGs with this format, are run of the mill expectations. Nothing critical about them. That is BY DESIGN with that format. This is a significant reason why people steer away from the roles. They have A LOT of responsibility that DPS do not... again, by design. Why do you think people rarely pay attention to DPS in regards to commendation handouts usually going to heals/tanks? There's a reason for that, just so you know.

The fact you actually think that that reason is a cop-out, SCREAMS that you're ignoring everything logical to push an irrelevant want (i.e. parsers in this topic). The witch hunt comment indeed holds true with what you've stated so far, but I want to specifically point out that it's now also in regards to what you will do with official parsers. Outside of raids like Coil, I don't think there's really a necessity for a parser to exist. It's not like it's impossible to do typical DF instances outside of it, afterall.

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Originally Posted by Darra

I find this interesting, because as a healer, I often found myself wiping in Qarn HM (Cactus boss) and close to wiping in AK HM on the demon wall due to poor DPS, and yet it's me as the healer, having to compensate for poor DPS or lazy DPS to prevent wipes in these locations.

But of course, as some people suggest, how dare I mentioned the fact that someone's DPS is shit and they're wasting my time, you know, me being a healer I should just shut up and DPS for them.

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I think you shouldn't help out. Let your group wipe so you CAN blame the DPS openly. Just like a bad healer or tank means you will likely always wipe, so too can bad DPS... yet the games design makes it easy to recover from this. If holding DPS up to standards is that important, why are you overlooking the opportunity? Mind you, I do think DPS should be held accountable in some regard, but I know that the holy trinity design doesn't really allow that for a game that is open arms to everyone (meaning there are many ways to get around bad DPS in most content).

Well, looks like I came back the next day and the threads just repeating itself.
People with no parser or end game experience repeating the same assumptions that everyone who does use a parser is a big ol meanie that will ask for 700+ DPS or kick you from the group (lolwut?).
Then DPS classes saying it is absurd that they get judged on doing their classes main role, even when the game actively relies on enrage timers and timed add phases and DPS checks.

You can argue that right now it is fine because they can't shout at you in game for your DPS, but I can tell you if someone REALLY wants you out of the group because they are parsing you at something pathetic they will just kick you and not say a word, wouldn't you rather know why you were kicked so you could improve? Even so it doesn't happen much anyway if the DPS is fine to get through you wont get kicked. As I said before if you don't care about improving that is also absolutely fine, but you have to ask yourself is it fair to go into end game raids that require some sort of skill level on your class and drag 7 other people down because 'I only play how I want to play' which to me is an absolutely abysmal attitude to have when playing an MMO.

Tanks should tank.
Healers should heal.
DPS classes should alt tab and watch netflix apparently.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

Then DPS classes saying it is absurd that they get judged on doing their classes main role, even when the game actively relies on enrage timers and timed add phases and DPS checks.

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With the exception of something like Demon Wall, do meaningful DPS checks actually exist outside of Coil? I mean, static raiders mostly will and do use parsers already. Generally speaking, the biggest problem if DF Coil runs are the issue is ignorance of the fights.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

With the exception of something like Demon Wall, do meaningful DPS checks actually exist outside of Coil? I mean, static raiders mostly will and do use parsers already. Generally speaking, the biggest problem if DF Coil runs are the issue is ignorance of the fights.

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And I personally don't care about a parser outside of end game raiding, hell just disable the thing in low levels/experts/towers so the people who don't care about DPS can do that content in peace (or even make it only visible to yourself in those low-mid tier duties). I even said in my post you quoted that if you don't want to improve that's fine but END-GAME has certain requirements to meet in terms of skill level. That requirement goes down with echo and with gear.

Although the extreme primals and the hard mode to an extent had DPS checks in them, back when people barely even had darklight.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

And I personally don't care about a parser outside of end game raiding, hell just disable the thing in low levels/experts/towers so the people who don't care about DPS can do that content in peace. I even said in my post you quoted that if you don't want to improve that's fine but END-GAME has certain requirements to meet in terms of skill level. That requirement goes down with echo and with gear.

Although the extreme primals and the hard mode to an extent had DPS checks in them, back when people barely even had darklight.

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Ah yes, I forgot about those Primal ones. That's true. That's also why it wasn't all that common to get done at the time lol. Somewhat similar to Coil.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Ah yes, I forgot about those Primal ones. That's true. That's also why it wasn't all that common to get done at the time lol. Somewhat similar to Coil.

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Yup, that's why I find it quite strange how people are so against a tool to measure your performance to an extent so you can see where you may need to improve. If you don't find that fun then great you obviously take your fun elsewhere in the game and that is fine, but if you find doing the end game content fun, playing your class a little better than just rolling your face across the keyboard is part of that and a parser would work wonders.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Fixed it a lil. As a WHM I can get kicked, yelled at, and harassed if I don't do my job, just like a tank can. As others have said, it isn't fair that dps can just slide by under everyones radar since there is no way to legally tell them they are doing poor dps. DPS players know this -- which is why you'll see people having sub 200 numbers in i130 gear even in easy content like WoD...

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On a more positive note, it would be nice to have a harder time giving commendations if I can see exactly how well the other 2 to 4 players did in a run. The people that complain about parsers must be the same ones who are too afraid to tank or heal.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

On a more positive note, it would be nice to have a harder time giving commendations if I can see exactly how well the other 2 to 4 players did in a run.

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This is true. Atm a lot of people always dib tanks/heals because they cannot see even if the dps did an awesome job. If some dps is pushing 500+ on a content where people usually go around 300, then I think that person has more than pulled his weight and deserves a comm.

I got more commendations playing my WHM for a few weeks for the zodiac weapon that ever as a dps, even though I consider myself a lot stronger on my dps classes.

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Originally Posted by Darra

I find this interesting, because as a healer, I often found myself wiping in Qarn HM (Cactus boss) and close to wiping in AK HM on the demon wall due to poor DPS, and yet it's me as the healer, having to compensate for poor DPS or lazy DPS to prevent wipes in these locations.

But of course, as some people suggest, how dare I mentioned the fact that someone's DPS is shit and they're wasting my time, you know, me being a healer I should just shut up and DPS for them.

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I wonder if Yoshi thinks that maybe the players who do play healer/tank and end up sticking with it tend to be better than the average player base. Healers and tanks tend to be very demanding jobs, especially in this game. Just like how the very same DPS players will avoid playing tank/healer for that same reason.

These better than average players end up making the poorer DPS players look good though. When in fact they could be better. It's sort of a performance blanket.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

People with no parser or end game experience repeating the same assumptions that everyone who does use a parser is a big ol meanie that will ask for 700+ DPS or kick you from the group

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Pretty much this.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

I think you shouldn't help out. Let your group wipe so you CAN blame the DPS openly. Just like a bad healer or tank means you will likely always wipe, so too can bad DPS... yet the games design makes it easy to recover from this. If holding DPS up to standards is that important, why are you overlooking the opportunity? Mind you, I do think DPS should be held accountable in some regard, but I know that the holy trinity design doesn't really allow that for a game that is open arms to everyone (meaning there are many ways to get around bad DPS in most content).

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And then I end up in a group that wipes 2-3 times, wasting my time. It's a sad situation where I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.