SE's most difinitive statement yet on parsers

I was not against parsers because they didn't affect me personally - until if I'm reading this right: parser users consist of the radar app users because it's all in the ONE app? Is this correct?

Honestly, all the people against parsers are probably people with horrible dps and are bitter about it.

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Originally Posted by PrimeEvilPanda

I was not against parsers because they didn't affect me personally - until if I'm reading this right: parser users consist of the radar app users because it's all in the ONE app? Is this correct?

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Nope, different plugins.

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Originally Posted by Elven

High enough is fine within reason. As for ignorance you must think I mean low dps to be 1k a minute is okay, I mean seriously people jump just because someone output 500 less than everyone else. I've seen tables on redit for hardcore streamline dps that only the elitist of players can attain with the idea that everyone else needs to be that high when being parsed. You know where anyone that thinks like that can stick it.

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Not sure but the last time I checked, dps =/= dpm, of course 1kdpm = 16.6dps, and if you meant 500 dps less than the others in the party, then I believe everyone would rage.

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Originally Posted by PrimeEvilPanda

I was not against parsers because they didn't affect me personally - until if I'm reading this right: parser users consist of the radar app users because it's all in the ONE app? Is this correct?

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Radar is a different plugin. The app uses several plugins that you can add/install and then turn on. Commonly it only comes with DPS meter installed; everything else you gotta install yourself.
Though, if you've read what Radar actually does, you'll find that it's quite trash for Hunts anyway.

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Originally Posted by PrimeEvilPanda

I was not against parsers because they didn't affect me personally - until if I'm reading this right: parser users consist of the radar app users because it's all in the ONE app? Is this correct?

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For the one that was posted on the forums, it is the same app(lication) but to my knowledge from its reddit page is in pieces you can choose to have or not. (Hence Taruranto's plugins response, though technically it is all in one app still). I would imagine the radar posted on the forums is not the only one though.

Reading for SE's txt log doesnt include all the information you need, the game memory can- but allowing one reading of game information means radar is also available. Banning and /actively/ enforcing no third party applications and having official gui mods would really help this situation.. lol

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I'd love for you to quote where I said they were essential. I can quote several times in the thread where I've stated I haven't even used one, much less downloaded one for FFXIV. In fact the analogies I was using a stopwatch for was for a PT test. They weren't essential there either, but they were pretty damn helpful.

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It doesn't matter how you meant it my point still stands a stop watch is essential a parser is not wether you personally use them or not.

All the people talk here and discuss many stuffs..
I wonder if there is actually any use?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

-snip-

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:/ DPS parser app didn't affect me because it stayed within the confines of the raiding groups - sort of like my lawn; they didn't trespass into it [my casual play], so I kinda had no reason to go off at them [with a shotgun]. If I ever raided with a proper raid group, I KNEW this would be the requirement by some groups so it was my own fault for complaining if I didn't like their set-up.

With the stupid radar app being used in Hunts, it affects the WHOLE community because the Hunt is affecting all aspects of the game. I can't condone the use of one app without disagreeing with the other.

Legit DPS parsers built-in this game is something I wouldn't mind, if only because I'm old school and I've had them in other games, so I essentially Have NOT seen them negatively used (if anything, teleport hacks/bots were the bigger uproar for me and my friends in past MMO's).

So with this thread at 29 pages I have to ask, and sort of reiterate...

You all who're excited to see the death of those elitist DPS-checkers know that this 'definitive statement' on parsers has been the case for over eight months now, right?

It's not news that it's against TOS, and it was being banned for a long time before the week this thread was made. A long time.

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Originally Posted by PrimeEvilPanda

With the stupid radar app being used in Hunts, it affects the WHOLE community because the Hunt is affecting all aspects of the game.

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I'm sorry, but the problem with Hunts isn't Radar.
The problem with Hunts, it's Hunts. They're poorly implemented and should have never, ever made it past any decent level of QA.

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Originally Posted by Tashigi

I'm sorry, but the problem with Hunts isn't Radar.
The problem with Hunts, it's Hunts. They're poorly implemented and should have never, ever made it past any decent level of QA.

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I was in general speaking about apps and their effect on the community (I did a poor job of it, sorry). In noting, how before, with dps parsers: YES, it was a hot debate in the forums - but within the game (at least in our server), it was kept to the confines of the raid community. Whereas with the radar app used in the Hunt, it had a negative effect on the entire community because it involved casual and hardcore players. I've seen more vitriol slung at people over radar apps than I had dps parsers.

In saying that, that is why I said I should not condone one and bag the other [app] because in essence they both evolve from within the same(?) program.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

seriously i read fun content, a good rl will know when a dps is low, based on gears and the rotation they do.
anyway, any program outside the game that help you in anyway, are forbidden that said, you use them at your risk and if you think SE will not banned people using parseer... you don't know them, they can and will probably do it.

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They cannot because they cannot detect it without messing in your PC.
People seem to think that a parser does anything with the files you get and modifies them but this completely wrong.
All a parser is is a calculator that reads log files from your local PC. For square to detect you are using one they would have to access your computer or at least see what are you else running in the background which is a lot more illigal then using parsers to begin with.

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Originally Posted by PrimeEvilPanda

Whereas with the radar app used in the Hunt, it had a negative effect on the entire community because it involved casual and hardcore players. I've seen more vitriol slung at people over radar apps than I had dps parsers.

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This was not the program's fault, though.
The playerbase has been greatly misinformed about these plugins, particularly the Radar plugin, which is actually quite limited. So limited, that it's a lot better/easier to look for Hunt targets the old fashion way; by panning your camera.
You should look it up and read about it's functions and limits and you'll understand, too.
Why the playerbase has exaggerated and blown these things out of proportion, well, I can't answer that without laughing. It's just silly how many of these threads we seem to get a day/week.

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Originally Posted by Krr

So with this thread at 29 pages I have to ask, and sort of reiterate...

You all who're excited to see the death of those elitist DPS-checkers know that this 'definitive statement' on parsers has been the case for over eight months now, right?

It's not news that it's against TOS, and it was being banned for a long time before the week this thread was made. A long time.

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Did you report the DPS parsing threads I linked? If you didn't/don't then it means you don't even believe what you just said.

Here, I'll relink them for you:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...otation-Reborn
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Temple-Reborn
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...age-Calculator

Go for it. Report them. Show us the good fight against DPS parsers. Fire the first shot if you dare. Again, I'm calling everyone's bluff.

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Originally Posted by Krr

You all who're excited to see the death of those elitist DPS-checkers

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This is a thread. A discussion is in place. Throwing a silly report tantrum doesn't solve the issue and it never will a new thread will just be made.

The only thing that amazes me is that no pro parser person can ever explain why it isn't anything else outside a quality of life thing. All that it ever bring is claims that it is good but never why. Since in a static someone's gonna know when someone is under performing easily. A skill tank can see when another tank is doing something wrong because he tanks. A skilled healer will realize when another healer under performs. Dps will notice the lack of someone else's dps.

You can solo queue for Syrcus Tower and literally see all the bad that happens within moments.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

The only thing that amazes me is that no pro parser person can ever explain why it isn't anything else outside a quality of life thing. All that it ever bring is claims that it is good but never why.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...otation-Reborn
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Temple-Reborn
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...age-Calculator

Read those threads. Parses allowed them to exist. Parses allowed them to see the benefit of Attributes vs Determination and other stats. If anyone wishes to see the downfall of parsers, threads like those should be their first target.

I'm seriously making this easy for anyone who is anti-parsing to see the end of Parsers if they are actually in the right. But the funny thing is they either lack the conviction or lack the confidence in their own argument to see it through. Again.. bluffing.

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Originally Posted by Tashigi

And I personally wouldn't want to raid with someone who is willing to be ignorant to the glaring fact that no matter how well you dodge/perform, if your DPS isn't high enough to meet the check point (enrage timer), your ship isn't sailing.
In the event that your DPS is too low for a fight that needs to be completed in a set amount of time, then it becomes your primary reason for wiping; in other words, it's value jumps to being the #1 priority and it become everything that's needed to complete your duty.

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to know what you claim, you definitly dont need any parsers, unless you really are dumb. If your group keeps dying because DPS fail to get rid of mobs in time, well chances are that dps arent good enough right ?...nothing justifies to demean people just because they are not up to your standards for whatever the reasons. In essence, I have nothing against parsers but unfortunately, the use of it is what is the problem and why they must and thankfully are forbidden. The reason is called : Immaturity.

Mei

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Read those threads. Parses allowed them to exist. Parses allowed them to see the benefit of Attributes vs Determination and other stats. If anyone wishes to see the downfall of parsers, threads like those should be their first target.

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So you're telling me that elementary and common sense isn't a thing because parsers?

It doesn't take a rocket science to figure out what these things do. Stats and attributes have been a thing since DnD and rotations have existed long before FFXIV. Sure some people will be new to the concept. I honestly don't see what point you trying to make outside of it being a quality of life tool because that's all it is at it's most minimum usage. On its day to day use it's nothing more than an unhealthy tool used for harassment or competitive annoyance.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Thing is all that is subjective and everything that can be achieved can be done without the use of a parser.

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I still stand by my verdict that SMN is nigh impossible to truly optimise without a parser, contagion vs ifrit's extra damage, is shadow flare useful? Should I ever bother with Miasma II? Due to how dot damage is displayed in such an overly simplistic manner in game, it is only possible to find out these kind of answers through the direct or indirect use of parsers. In short, not all rotations are self explanatory.

And just to reiterate, sorry but you are wrong, there's just no way to sugar coat it. Savage coil isn't possible without the use of a parser to get everyone to the performance level the content requires. The vast majority of T9 clears will have either run a parser themselves or used strategies that were devised off the back of parser data even if they don't quite know it.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

I know for some players it's some quality of life thing yet overall it's a tool that is mainly gonna be used to abuse it's purpose by singling out players based on a 1 time performance regardless of gear and skill.

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And I think you are overblowing the risks of that actually happening, it's been demonstrated repeatedly that SE take inter player abuse very seriously, far more so than is usually the case in an mmo. As long as that continued to be the case then you need not worry. I'd be more concerned about the inevitable rise of the '400DEEPS OR KICK - Garuda EX' party finders myself ;)

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So you're telling me that elementary and common sense isn't a thing because parsers?

It doesn't take a rocket science to figure out what these things do. Stats and attributes have been a thing since DnD and rotations have existed long before FFXIV. Sure some people will be new to the concept. I honestly don't see what point you trying to make outside of it being a quality of life tool because that's all it is at it's most minimum usage. On its day to day use it's nothing more than an unhealthy tool used for harassment or competitive annoyance.

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Without looking it up, please elaborate how much INT is equal to 10 DET?

Again you're bluffing. When you get those three threads locked, I'll recant my statements and agree that Parsers shouldn't be used. Deal?

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

On its day to day use it's nothing more than an unhealthy tool used for harassment or competitive annoyance.

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It's no different to how a cyclist or runner would use Strava. I would wager that a lot more people parse than you realise, you just don't realise it because believe it or not, they are not interested in forcing those numbers down your throat. They are purely interested in self improvement. People taking that data and using it as ammo to be abusive towards other players are the minority and deserve every report they get against them.

Not a main point but just a funny side note to a decent point on why a parser is useful (hard hard content). Perhaps the parser is ruining the difficulty curve SE uses, because more information is known. Better information leads to better play leads to SE making content harder to make it "feel" hard.

Funny to consider that the argument for the parser is what leads to needing the parser. Like in WoW where raid alert or whatever that mod's name is caused blizzard to have to make harder contents. I don't think it's 100% cyclical cause and effect, so carry on the fight.. But I think it could have an effect on non-parser players as stated above.

Recap: (Content made harder due to players doing better due to having more information- parser made the game harder for non-parsing players). It's just a fun theory, would be hard to prove without dev feedback, but I imagine they do use player success/failures to design next fights. ;D

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Savage coil isn't possible without the use of a parser to get everyone to the performance level the content requires. The vast majority of T9 clears will have either run a parser themselves or used strategies that were devised off the back of parser data even if they don't quite know it.

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Actually, yes it is or SE wouldn't have designed it. You must remember that all content that goes into this game is designed around all platforms offered to the playerbase. Every little bit of content in this game can be completed by a full party of ps3 players (which would innately lack any parsing ability).Of course, they would have to work harder to overcome hardware limitations, but SE wouldn't have designed a fight a specific way unless it was possible to complete within some reasonable percentage. People here may not like this, but for the most part "parsers" are a mere crutch that lesser-skilled players (not just in FFXIV but in many MMOs) have become so dependent upon that they have become the "norm" in gaming society. This was to be expected though from a purely psychological standpoint. After all, the same principle applies to raising children. The more you spoil them, the more they demand later and the more they complains when things don't go their way. Gamers have been spoiled by parsers giving them the easy way out, and know nothing now but how to demand for them to be integrated into every game. The minute you design a game that doesn't warrant their use, people flip their shit because you've moved "outside the established norm." Hell, I remember 13-14 years ago parsers were unheard of, and we fought and defeated difficult enemies by brain-power alone.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Recap: (Content made harder due to players doing better due to having more information- parser made the game harder for non-parsing players). It's just a fun theory, would be hard to prove without dev feedback, but I imagine they do use player success/failures to design next fights. ;D

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In WoW the addon you're talking about was Deadly Boss Mobs, and if I'm not mistaken it did cause the devs some issues there. But prior to that people were using Ventrilo and a Stopwatch for boss effects. Personally I don't think bosses should be using effects on timers or hp%'s. That throws off such strategies and introduces skill based solutions rather than scripting. But thats just my 2 cents on that.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Actually, yes it is or SE wouldn't have designed it. You must remember that all content that goes into this game is designed around all platforms offered to the playerbase. Every little bit of content in this game can be completed by a full party of ps3 players (which would innately lack any parsing ability).Of course, they would have to work harder to overcome hardware limitations, but SE wouldn't have designed a fight a specific way unless it was possible to complete within some reasonable percentage..

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Yoshida straight up said when they announced savage coil that they don't even know if it's possible to be beaten in current gear. Lucrezia proved them wrong, but I'd love to see a full party of PS3 - using only PS3 tools (no voice chat) beat savage 6-9.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I still stand by my verdict that SMN is nigh impossible to truly optimise without a parser, contagion vs ifrit's extra damage, is shadow flare useful? Should I ever bother with Miasma II? Due to how dot damage is displayed in such an overly simplistic manner in game, it is only possible to find out these kind of answers through the direct or indirect use of parsers. In short, not all rotations are self explanatory.

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So you're saying that when it comes to SMN you're part of the, "it's new to me" crowd? Which doesn't surprise me.

Half of the things you question is something you see and notice leveling and if you didn't that's pretty hilarious to me. I can go on but there's no point since I already explained why you're trying to make this a thing.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

And just to reiterate, sorry but you are wrong, there's just no way to sugar coat it. Savage coil isn't possible without the use of a parser to get everyone to the performance level the content requires. The vast majority of T9 clears will have either run a parser themselves or used strategies that were devised off the back of parser data even if they don't quite know it.

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This is the saddest thing about parser enthusiasts you neglect something so simple just to make it sound like it's some massive complicated system that can't be figured out without help. Fights are mechanic oriented which is the reason why all guides revolve around explaining abilities and rotations over YOU NEED 400 DPS ON EVERY BODY AND 350 HEALS PER HEALER.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

And I think you are overblowing the risks of that actually happening, it's been demonstrated repeatedly that SE take inter player abuse very seriously, far more so than is usually the case in an mmo. As long as that continued to be the case then you need not worry. I'd be more concerned about the inevitable rise of the '400DEEPS OR KICK - Garuda EX' party finders myself ;)

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Sorry but the end game environment has changed a lot since 2.0 and the offenders are end game difficult increases mixed with the type of environment parsers create. I've put up with it so much that it has gotten to the point that I'm willing to avoid end game raiding because of it now. I tolerated that bs for well near a decade and it has never changed and all meter enthusiasts don't ever bother to make the end game environment any better.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Not a main point but just a funny side note to a decent point on why a parser is useful (hard hard content). Perhaps the parser is ruining the difficulty curve SE uses

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That's the kind of mentality that really irks me.

Those players downing savage coil are actually putting effort. If you actually take the time to realize that they put in hours upon hours every day doing savage coil. They put that time checking and testing mechanics that need to be tackled. It's the reason why it's possible to be downed.

We weren't told what kind of gear the dev team used, the type of raiding hours they put in, and so on.

Yet you go and overshadow all that hard work people doing savage coil by mentioning "parsers". It's pretty sad from my pov that you would do that.

I'm not here to debate as I agree with both sides (parsers are definitely useful, but they're also clearly against the rules). I just had to comment that the thread starter's name is from one of the best books ever - Use of Weapons. Everyone go read it!

If SE could at least give players a way to see their own DPS numbers (like at a special training dummy) this would be of benefit to everyone who wished to maximize how effective their rotations are. I know I'm far from the first to suggest it, but there's been no explicable indication why SE won't give us something like this to help put those of us on PS4/3 on equal footing with PC players from the standpoint of being able to know how personally effective we are. When I started out I read all sorts of guides to be as effective as possible, much to my detriment it turned out as I was using those godawful DPS-killing bard macros recommended all over the place that use don't interweave GCD vs off GCD skills and add needless wait time all over the place. It made my DPS mediocre at end game, and the only advice I got was stuff I was already doing and I couldn't figure out why when others added 1+1 they got 2, and when I did I got 1.5, metaphorically speaking and it was frustrating as hell. Someone (to whom I'll always be grateful but will forever go unnamed) spent a good 45 min to an hour working on my rotation with me at training dummies in Gridania, and a lot of it came down to reeducation and me unlearning an approach I'd been conditioned to follow since I started and learning a brand new one. But without access to info re: DPS we wouldn't have known whether that made much of a difference or not. In fact, my DPS increased 30% when comparing the numbers from me going at the training dummies a few min under the old rotation, and doing it again after improvements were made. That's kind of a big deal. Sure, I mentioned at the start was that SE should at least let us see our own numbers, and then my example is from someone else helping me- but until then I had no way to gauge these numbers myself, and players willing to invest that much effort into helping others are not that easy to come by (and they can't help everybody). An in game DPS meter wouldn't have told me how to be more effective in the same sense as this other player, but being able to benchmark myself earlier on would have been nice.

And now that I think of it, why do we even have training dummies but no in game DPS meter, that's like having a car with no speedometer.

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

And now that I think of it, why do we even have training dummies but no in game DPS meter, that's like having a car with no speedometer.

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You can actually see the kind of damage your auto-attacks, dots, and abilities do w/o buffs. You can numbers crunch from there.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

You can actually see the kind of damage your auto-attacks, dots, and abilities do w/o buffs. You can numbers crunch from there.

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Sorry but i am no cpu that can "crunch numbers" like that on the fly.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

You can actually see the kind of damage your auto-attacks, dots, and abilities do w/o buffs. You can numbers crunch from there.

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The game doesn't inherently give you any way of telling how much damage your DoT effects do. If you used a parser you would be able to tell though. Why are you even commenting in this thread trying to say content doesn't need it when you don't even do high end content to know whether or not it would be needed? You haven't even beat T6 but you claim to know that people don't need to parse for savage T9? You're basically being an armchair quarterback for a game you have no actual knowledge of (the game being relevant endgame raids.)

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

The game doesn't inherently give you any way of telling how much damage your DoT effects do. If you used a parser you would be able to tell though.

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This is actually false, all parsers currently have no way of getting DOT damage and instead calculate an estimate, this is the reason people get slightly different results in parses for the same encounter.

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

This is actually false, all parsers currently have no way of getting DOT damage and instead calculate an estimate, this is the reason people get different results in parses for the same encounter.

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The parser with FFXIV in the name simulates DoTs the one that is three letters actually gets the damage from in game memory. Anyone serious about parsing uses the latter, people only use the former for plugins like that crap radar

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

And now that I think of it, why do we even have training dummies but no in game DPS meter, that's like having a car with no speedometer.

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However, I understand the desire to know how much damage you are outputting, and while it will take some time, we’ve been discussing making it so striking dummies measure DPS as well as whether we can add a training activity for new players where you’ll have to deal a certain amount of damage within a certain time. This is how we've decided to address an official DPS meter.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...806-04-2014%29

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

stuff

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Maybe you should edit it before someone report it.
Praising a not allowed tool and so.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

The parser with FFXIV in the name simulates DoTs the one that is three letters actually gets the damage from in game memory. Anyone serious about parsing uses the latter, people only use the former for plugins like that crap radar

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No it doesn't. If you look in-depth into someones parse it even says "Simulated DoTs (Out)", all the dots do the same damage when in-game they have some slight variation like every attack, with adjustments made depending on which buffs and debuffs are up.

Gorgomon trolling another parsing thread when he has zero idea what end game is actually like? Not surprised, It's like I've seen half a dozen threads where he does this.

In each thread it's the same thing. Fight's are just mechanics so it's not that hard and you don't need ridiculous dps! Despite the fact that anyone actually doing end game knows how incorrect such a statement is instantaneously. Seriously guys, stop feeding the troll.

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

No it doesn't. If you look in-depth into someones parse it even says "Simulated DoTs (Out)", all the dots do the same damage when in-game they have some slight variation like every attack, with adjustments made depending on which buffs and debuffs are up.

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This is a quote from the plugin author on Reddit: " it is real data from the game and not simulated. I did some testing in CT and it performed very well, even with 5+ ground aoes running."

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

The game doesn't inherently give you any way of telling how much damage your DoT effects do. If you used a parser you would be able to tell though. Why are you even commenting in this thread trying to say content doesn't need it when you don't even do high end content to know whether or not it would be needed? You haven't even beat T6 but you claim to know that people don't need to parse for savage T9? You're basically being an armchair quarterback for a game you have no actual knowledge of (the game being relevant endgame raids.)

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If you can kill a mob fast enough not to wipe, that means DPS is enough, whether some are lower then others isnt important is it not? in a group the collective is important not the individual. One stronger will compensate a weaker, if all are weak it is a fail, and all will know and if you make it well it means that COLLECTIVELY your DPS was enough for it..the one weaker will sooner or later find out if his or her dps is low or not. No need for parsers for it, right ?

The end of the story is...beyond all you say is forbidden, ify ou want to use it and are caught using it and banned dont complain...saying parsers are necessary ..sorry they are not.

Mei

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

This is a quote from the plugin author on Reddit: " it is real data from the game and not simulated. I did some testing in CT and it performed very well, even with 5+ ground aoes running."

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That was in regards to Flaming Arrow and Shadow Flare ticks.