Time limit to re-enter dungeons

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

So lets make the Hardcore players play like casual players. Wow. Stunning that this makes logical sense to ANYONE. CASUALS are casual for a reason. They don't have the time to run a dungeon 5 times in one night because they don't play 5 hours at a time, or even 5 consecutive nights a week. THEY ARE GOING TO GET GEAR SLOWER BECAUSE THEY PLAY LESS NOT BECAUSE OF LOCKOUT TIMERS.

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Casuals are casual for a reason. They get bored easily, they have no patience to go to an instance time and time again and get little out of it because the content is balanced for hardcore population.

The hardcore, on the other hand, is less likely to quit because he always has goals to aim for, even if they're locked out. He is much more serious about the game, beyond the point of quitting because he is bored. He might complain, but he will put up with it. He is more likely to get addicted too.

Guess who is easier to keep playing? The moody casual who has no obligations, or the sirius business-HC that will make up stuff to do if forced to, instead of quitting?

It's an easy choice, and unfortunately not the choice you would hope for.

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Short term f2p ? dont make me laugh.

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Considering the estimated lifetime of the game, yes, a short-term F2P.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Higher drop rates, for one.

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/lies .....

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Casuals are casual for a reason. They get bored easily, they have no patience to go to an instance time and time again and get little out of it because the content is balanced for hardcore population.

The hardcore, on the other hand, is less likely to quit because he always has goals to aim for, even if they're locked out. He is much more serious about the game, beyond the point of quitting because he is bored. He might complain, but he will put up with it. He is more likely to get addicted too.

Guess who is easier to keep playing? The moody casual who has no obligations, or the sirius business-HC that will make up stuff to do if forced to, instead of quitting?

It's an easy choice, and unfortunately not the choice you would hope for.

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Lol whatever.

It's like saying. "Let's let anyone enter the olympics and what we'll do is let the fat, sloppy, joe schmoe get a 2 minute head start because he is too lazy to exercise and actually run the race as it was intended to be run."

Ridiculous.

It's been interesting catching up with this thread. So many posts in such a short period of time! Clearly people feel pretty passionately about this topic :D.

This is a looong post, and I'm sorry for that. But this isn't a simple subject (as much as people may like one-liners and zingers :p).

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Originally Posted by Aramil

I don't really see what's the big deal. it's not making the dungeons shorter or anything. If it take 20 runs at 1 hour each to get the items you want, you'll spend 20hours in the dungeons. Be it in 1 day or 1 month, it'll still be 20 hours. The hours in dungeons and doing something else is still the same.

It's as if I was comparing 2 games that were about 40 hours long, first one finished in 2 week during the summer when i have more free time and the second one finish in 2 month during school. I won't be thinking that the first one was way too short, only 1 week worth of playtime while the second one was a way better purchase, 2 months of playtime. In the end they both took about the same time.

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I believe this is a valid point. The actual details of the raid dungeons, their difficulty, multi-pathing, etc, will determine the re-playability of these dungeons. Thus, a given dungeon has a certain life-span in terms of number of repeats. This number will vary from player to player : some may feel 'done' after a few visits, and some will feel 'done' after more.
~~> The actual length of content is determined by the dungeon content, not by a lockout timer.

Let's take a player that will be 'finished' after 20 runs through the dungeon, and each run is an hour, so, that's 20 hours worth of content. Timer or no timer, there is 20 hours worth of playable content for that player.

Now, if a 24 hour timer is added, the "pro-timer" crowd is correct (in one sense). The content is stretched out to last 20 days (at least). But in another sense that is NOT right, because adding a timer does not create 20 days' worth of content -- there is still 20 hours worth of content, but now the player must experience 1 hour of content interspersed with 23 hours of some other content. If there is no other content, the player will log off, and only log on every 24 hours, experience the 1 hour of content, and then log off.

If there is other content (like say, settlement quest hubs), then the player can go experience some other content while waiting for the timer to cool down. However, the dungeon timer doesn't create this new content -- all it does is force the player to go do something else other than play through the dungeon.

When anti-timer people tell the pro-timer people "if you want a timer, just don't go in the dungeon", I take it as the following: if there were a timer on the dungeon, what would these pro-timer people be doing while the timer is cooling down? If there is other content to go do, then that content could still be done. It isn't necessary to repeat a dungeon over and over until you burn out on it. Buuut, if you want to, go ahead! Then you can go play the other content.

On the other hand, if there ISN'T other content to play beside the dungeon, then how would a timer make the game more enjoyable? There would be this dungeon content, but you as a player are locked out of it.
~~> A timer doesn't create content, it just forces the dungeon to be interspersed with other content.

One of the other issues with having a timer is that it encourages people to try and conform their RL schedules around playing the game. As Yoshi-P put it:

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Also, on a related note, we’ll be changing the way guildleves work in 1.19 to do away with the feeling that you’re somehow being penalized for not filling the daily quota of levequests.

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I've seen quotes from people in the military, who might be on duty for 2 months, and then have 2 solid weeks to pour into the game -- timers do not suit that type of schedule. People have a wide variety of lifestyles, for one reason or another. Do we as a community REALLY want to exclude / punish people that can't organize their life / schedule around playing FFXIV?
~~> A timer punishes those players who can't conform their RL schedules to the FFXIV timer schedule.

Now for the flip side
There are positive things to be said about timers. People who run theme parks deliberately pace access to rides for a variety of reasons. One, it paces people, and is more cost-effective. But on a more positive note, waiting can actually enhance the experience, by creating a sense of anticipation.

Most roller coaster rides (that I've seen) pace the lines to be around a half hour to an hour. They usually have energetic music playing, and you can see the coaster and hear the people screaming. It helps set the mood for the people that are going to experience it. Something along these lines could help extend the pacing, create excitement, and enhance satisfaction. Actually implementing it like this ... pretty damned hard.
~~> Waiting to access content can increase anticipation, so a timer could add value.

Sorry for the long post!
TL/dr -- I tried to summarize with the bold bullets :)

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Casuals are casual for a reason. They get bored easily, they have no patience to go to an instance time and time again and get little out of it because the content is balanced for hardcore population.

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See now I disagree with that definition of Casual. I would consider myself casual only because of my mentality and play time restrictions on some days. I can't consider myself hardcore because I'm not constantly striving to be the absolute best as fast as possible. Also I can't play 12 hours a day when I have work/college. Thus I would consider myself casual. However that being said I have every intent to play the shit out of those dungeons until I have all the items I need and as long as people in my Linkshell desire to keep going in.

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Originally Posted by Richard

sky is open world content. not instanced. problem? Not to mention you had to farm "currency" in the form of triggers to even do the content. That in-itself is it's own "timer" and stretched the content out much longer than it would have if you could just pop the gods w/e triggers.

Good try though.

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Just like you have to run thru the dungeon for 30+ mins to get the tot he boss oh wait.....

Square is simply making a major mistake with this, same one they made with NMs.

Atm I highly question if they will be able to keep up with the playerbase with that re-enter period time. There will be group doing it 6-8 times a day and it will lead to burn out or simply them completely clearing out a dungeon in a week.

This is just bad game design honestly... unless the drop rates are abysmal the dungeons will have less then 1 weeks life to them and they will fade away to nothingness. If the drop rates are bad.. therefor extending the life of them, people will get sick of doing them from spamming.

Square simply cannot produce content fast enough to warrant this style gameplay in every aspect of the game... they said it themselves it takes 6 months to add new assets to the game.... so why continue to release every piece of content with less then a months life to it when it takes 5-6 fold that long to make new stuff.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

See now I disagree with that definition of Casual. I would consider myself casual only because of my mentality and play time restrictions on some days. I can't consider myself hardcore because I'm not constantly striving to be the absolute best as fast as possible. Also I can't play 12 hours a day when I have work/college. Thus I would consider myself casual. However that being said I have every intent to play the shit out of those dungeons until I have all the items I need and as long as people in my Linkshell desire to keep going in.

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Don't you know you are arguing with someone who already has ALL the answers?

Well, at least when my friends log on to my linkshell and ask for my help in a dungeon, I won't have to responds 75% of the time with "Sorry, I can't. I already did my dungeon adventure for the day. Can't re-enter that dungeon yet... Guildleves?"

Talk is cheap , like your opinion of what I said . When its time to pay show your support for crappy content by putting your money where your mouth is . Then I'll buy , until then your just spouting crap out your mouth to hear yourself talk . pal:)

Considering that their plan is "implement new content, see how players utilize content, collect data, collect feedback, and use what they learned to tweak the new content and apply their lessons to any future new content", I really don't see how a 5 minute time limit is so horrible.

We're still in the testing phase. Just play the damn game.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

It's like saying. "Let's let anyone enter the olympics and what we'll do is let the fat, sloppy, joe schmoe get a 2 minute head start because he is too lazy to exercise and actually run the race as it was intended to be run."

Ridiculous.

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Except that this is a video game.....and that's the Olympics.

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Originally Posted by Richard

longer lockout = extended life of content and % of gaining loot goes down. Simple math.

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which => less incentive for SE to launch new content because we're all still grinding content from 2 years ago....

If they are going to pursue content like this, the development team is going to have to learn to launch more new things more often if they want to keep players interested. THAT is a good thing. Let's see if they can execute now.

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Originally Posted by alexi14

I think he'd rather cater to the OTHER 99/100. Not the 1 who decided to max everything before content even came :D

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There is definitely more than 1% of the population with all 50's DoW/M. Don't forget to count the people that only wanted to rank up 1 or 2 jobs because that's the type of character they want to play. All of these people are sitting on their thumbs like me. I only wanted to be a mage class but because it was too easy to rank up so fast I finished the *2* classes they offered extremely fast. Then I was left with the option of quit the game or rank up other classes to kill time before they gave us something hard/time consuming. I chose to rank up rather than quit because I had faith that SE was having internal problems and that it would take time to correct with the changes they made with staff. Now the new staff is releasing their changes and other than the stamina gauge being removed and auto attack being added I haven't seen much to go into the positive changes category. Maybe this is what life was like in FFXI before they released CoP. I didn't play before then. All I'm really asking for is something hard to fight with a low drop rate and that takes up a lot of time. Give me HNMs to camp with 24 hour timers. Give me things like Dynamis/Salvage/Limbus/Etc. The way it stands now I can only hope for these things in some sort of expansion down the road. I just don't know if SE will be able to compete with things like TERA long enough to get to that point though.

It's amazing that anyone thinks a 5 min lockout is a good idea.

1 day - alright
3 days - good
1 week - ideal

If dungeons have no lockout then most likely loot will drop at some ridiculously low rate. Which makes the game monotonous to players that have time to do it and unobtainable for those that don't.

It's all so stupid.

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Originally Posted by lunardemon

Talk is cheap , like your opinion of what I said . When its time to pay show your support for crappy content by putting your money where your mouth is . Then I'll buy , until then your just spouting crap out your mouth to hear yourself talk . pal:)

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I actually like the direction this game is heading so I have every intention of paying for it the day it becomes available. I personally don't think it's crappy content at all, but that's just me. If I didn't like the game or the direction it's heading in I would have left a long time ago. I don't play games I don't enjoy simply because they're free.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

/lies .....

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No reason to not have them, really.

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It's like saying. "Let's let anyone enter the olympics and what we'll do is let the fat, sloppy, joe schmoe get a 2 minute head start because he is too lazy to exercise and actually run the race as it was intended to be run."
Ridiculous.

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analogues, wonderful.

So anyone without enough time on their hands is a joe schmoe, a lazy bum that doesn't take the game SERIOUSLY enough and as such doesn't deserve to be there.

Too bad the sponsors need the entering fees from joe as much as anna kournikova next to him. Either way the one giving up first will be joe and the sponsors can't let that happen or he won't take part in the race next time.

I can see that you're in the "Idc" phase now; a way for the mind to defend itself from being confused due to being proven wrong.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

which => less incentive for SE to launch new content because we're all still grinding content from 2 years ago....

If they are going to pursue content like this, the development team is going to have to learn to launch more new things more often if they want to keep players interested. THAT is a good thing. Let's see if they can execute now.

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More =/= better. So far all the current content is crap.Hopefully this will be at least not just follow a straight line.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Now for the flip side
There are positive things to be said about timers. People who run theme parks deliberately pace access to rides for a variety of reasons. One, it paces people, and is more cost-effective. But on a more positive note, waiting can actually enhance the experience, by creating a sense of anticipation.

Most roller coaster rides (that I've seen) pace the lines to be around a half hour to an hour. They usually have energetic music playing, and you can see the coaster and hear the people screaming. It helps set the mood for the people that are going to experience it. Something along these lines could help extend the pacing, create excitement, and enhance satisfaction. Actually implementing it like this ... pretty damned hard.
~~> Waiting to access content can increase anticipation, so a timer could add value.

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The best day I ever had at Disney World, was when my wife and I were there with a couple buddies halfway between Thanksgiving and Christmas. There were no lines, no waits. They literally ran rides when we boarded the front car. That was hands down, the best day I have ever spent in an amusement park. If we wanted to go again, we went again. If we wanted to do something differnt, we ran over there and did something else fun.

Lesson: this game just needs enough fun content, that everybody is standing around when they log in going...OMG...there's so many cool things to do. What should we do first?!?! Then do that and do more and more and more, all different, fun and exciting.

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Originally Posted by AeraLucis

Except that this is a video game.....and that's the Olympics.

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How is it different by penalizing one portion of the community for another?

I dont even know who is in what side anymore , damn out of popcorn.... out for more.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

How is it different by penalizing one portion of the community for another?

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Better penalize the strong-willed. They aren't going anywhere.

You aren't getting away penalizing no one.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

No reason to not have them, really.



analogues, wonderful.

So anyone without enough time on their hands is a joe schmoe, a lazy bum that doesn't take the game SERIOUSLY enough and as such doesn't deserve to be there.

Too bad the sponsors need the entering fees from joe as much as anna kournikova next to him. Either way the one giving up first will be joe and the sponsors can't let that happen or he won't take part in the race next time.

I can see that you're in the "Idc" phase now; a way for the mind to defend itself from being confused due to being proven wrong.

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Just like insults are the defense of the weak-minded? Listen, you're not doing anything to my ego friend so you can stop trying. You're trying to sell me on the fact that a 36 hour cool down timer is better for the game for casual players. And yet the 5 minute timer doesn't restrict casual gamers, so your point is moot.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Better penalize the strong-willed. They aren't going anywhere.

You aren't getting away penalizing no one.

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Which is why no one is being penalized in the current system. Seems fair to me.

lol i like how people think it's perfectly ok to say 'just release moar things fasterer'. You can't possibly begin to even know what your talking about lol. That's like me criticizing a US president and saying just get more money.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Casuals are casual for a reason. They get bored easily, they have no patience to go to an instance time and time again and get little out of it because the content is balanced for hardcore population.

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I'm a casual player because I have a full time job and family members to care for, not because I'm impatient.

If anyone is impatient, it's the hardcore population with their "MUST GET ALL UBER GEARZ NOW CAN'T STOP PLAYING TIL I'M 1337" mentality.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

The best day I ever had at Disney World, was when my wife and I were there with a couple buddies halfway between Thanksgiving and Christmas. There were no lines, no waits. They literally ran rides when we boarded the front car. That was hands down, the best day I have ever spent in an amusement park.

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I actually had a similar experience. I went to Six Flags: Magic Mountain on just the right day, no people, and lots of rides open / cars running. I went on a roller coaster a dozen times in an hour, and it was fantastic. I think in part, though, it was so great because when I went I was expecting the long lines, and so it was a nice surprise to just be able to GO.

That said, a lot of the actual implementations of lines/queues ARE just annoying. It's hot, the sun is beating down on you, and some kid is screaming while you are stuck in line for 3 hours. THAT is the type of timer I'd just as soon avoid.

I guess I'm thinking something more like a somewhat long elevator ride down into the dungeon. Creepy music and sound effects play. Maybe you can hear the sounds of a previous party battling, or even see them. Something like the opening to the original Half-life comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Just like insults are the defense of the weak-minded? Listen, you're not doing anything to my ego friend so you can stop trying. You're trying to sell me on the fact that a 36 hour cool down timer is better for the game for casual players. And yet the 5 minute timer doesn't restrict casual gamers, so your point is moot.

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We're way past having an actual argument at this point; you are no longer capable.

All you want is a way to get out of the argument without looking as if you had "lost"...which you already did.

Now to make up an excuse to "not have to listen to me" so you can a) end the "debate" and b) not have to do any self-reflecting; oh, it's so bothersome.

But no hard feelings.

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Which is why no one is being penalized in the current system. Seems fair to me.

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Still squirming, but you never told me what to set the drop rate so no one gets penalized. I gave you two options that don't work. To avoid being a troll, give me some facts.

What's the drop rate that doesn't penalize anyone?

I agree with you on not playing games because they are free , I think the difference is that I still have expectations that this can be a great game .
However when I see the quick fix , because people are bored and will go for anything new at this point .
I worry because accepting this now sets the stage for everything else we will get .
It would be better maybe if they just mailed the items to us . Oh nvm no mailbox , maybe this is the best way to give us items then .
Don't you want to know whats its like to overcome the odds , to be a part of something not just anyone can do ?
This games direction is the opposite of that and if you like the direction its headed , then you are'nt playing your just showing up to collect easy items .

We need a Community Rep to step up and answer all of our questions.
Entry fee? Item requirement?

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

We're way past having an actual argument at this point; you are no longer capable.

All you want is a way to get out of the argument without looking as if you had "lost"...which you already did.

Now to make up an excuse to "not have to listen to me" so you can a) end the "debate" and b) not have to do any self-reflecting; oh, it's so bothersome.

But no hard feelings.

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Again, lawl post. I know people have a psychological NEED to feel as though they are right, but you take it to new heights by not acknowledging anyone's opinions but your own. Hope you are happy in your own little world.

I can respect people's opinions, but when you present it as 'fact' it's an annoyance.

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

We need a Community Rep to step up and answer all of our questions.
Entry fee? Item requirement?

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I think they have already stated that the ONLY prerequisite to enter is a Grand Company quest.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I guess I'm thinking something more like a somewhat long elevator ride down into the dungeon. Creepy music and sound effects play. Maybe you can hear the sounds of a previous party battling, or even see them. Something like the opening to the original Half-life comes to mind.

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This is fine...it in itself is part of the content. Much like the Haunted Tower ride or whatever has the extended walk through the haunted house first. But that is not the same as..."Sorry, this ride is closed until next week. Please come back then."

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

I'm a casual player because I have a full time job and family members to care for, not because I'm impatient.

If anyone is impatient, it's the hardcore population with their "MUST GET ALL UBER GEARZ NOW CAN'T STOP PLAYING TIL I'M 1337" mentality.

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Seems that the term "casual" has changed in the past few years. And to this day, I think we need another term: "core players".

A casual player would be the one that only plays one or two days a week. And yes, he or she will get bored easily. The same term can be applied to those who don't own a dedicated PC or console to play. Flash games, FB games, etc..

The core player is like you, Eekiki. Or me. We enjoy the game, but might not have all day long to play. We also don't fall into the "l33t" mentality you mentioned.

And lastly, the hardcore gamer. Which in reality hasn't changed that much - or at all.

~~ As for the actual topic.

I have to wonder...the only logical reason I have read is about the loot/drop rate. That by having a cooldown period, the drop rate would be higher. But at the same time, isn't this making the game easier in other aspects? I've always seen rare and expensive drops as that....rare. And I think the more "powerful" the drop is, the more time we have to spend killing that mob until we get it.

What you guys want is something that will limit the amount of successes that players have so that the dungeon rewards don't flood the world so soon.

All other things being equal, I'd prefer this limitation to be most strong due to the influence of dungeon difficulty, not an access limiter.

That way, your rewards are more directly correlated to your actual skill in the game, not how much time you can spend.

This is why I'd be in favor of level caps on dungeons rather than really long re-entry time limits.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

What you guys want is something that will limit the amount of successes that players have so that the dungeon rewards don't flood the world so soon.

All other things being equal, I'd prefer this limitation to be most strong due to the influence of dungeon difficulty, not an access limiter.

That way, your rewards are more directly correlated to your actual skill in the game, not how much time you can spend.

This is why I'd be in favor of level caps on dungeons rather than really long re-entry time limits.

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Thank you! /bow

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I think they have already stated that the ONLY prerequisite to enter is a Grand Company quest.

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Meh, i see.
I think those dungeons are really just a test, hence the low re-entry time.
We'll definetely have something more difficult in the near future (past 1.19)

I am really hoping that the original comments about how we would need dedicated jobs to be able to clear the dungeons are true...and hardcore or not we all spend until 1.19/1.20 trying them and wiping because we can't yet create the builds and team dynamics to be successful.

i read a handful of posts and saw some griping that i noticed didnt make sense

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Utilizing content =/= finishing content in 1 week. Even your precious World of Warcraft is not this casual.

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actually yes you can.
in both WoW and Rift you can spam dungeons immediately after one another. even the same ones. in WoW which ones you can spam are randomized but you non the less get the same ones. in Rift as far as i can tell they are not random, you pick and go-- i believe this will also work for FFXIV

also, i saw someone say dungeons as being a "new way of xping". in most MMOs questing is half of how people level.
the other half is done strictly through queueing and spamming dungeons. with the amount of mobs and the help of a group you are able to accumulate more XP overall even though XP per mob is less.

this whole system may be new to FFXI players, but its pretty archaic as far as most other MMOs.

also to note- most MMOs have harder versions of the same dungeons which cannot be repeated immediately, there is a 24 hour cool down. who is to say this is one of those types of dungeons and not one of the more "just for right now" type of dungeons? its difficulty? id only imagine future dungeons will only be harder.

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

Meh, i see.
I think those dungeons are really just a test, hence the low re-entry time.
We'll definetely have something more difficult in the near future (past 1.19)

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Not only that, But I think it is meant to take the place of Group leveling as well, which is another really good reason for a 5 minute cool-down. It is just enough time to hit the bathroom, grab a drink, and get back to leveling.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Thank you! /bow

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Does that mean you're in favor of level caps now? lol

And to be more clear, I actually think that 5 minutes is a bit too fast*, but I'm gonna roll with it regardless since this is still a testing phase after all. Who knows, it may actually work out in the end, we'll just have to see how this plays out.

*While 5 minutes is probably too fast, in my opinion, a one week cooldown is just ridiculous. A reasonable reentry time limit coupled with a reasonable consumable cost (gil, quest item, beastcoins, etc) would be the best solution, as far as theorycrafting is concerned.