On this day a year ago, Plunge was taken from us (and other Job Identity)

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Originally Posted by Volkien

It's better than a front flip helmbreaker. Obviously aesthetic preference is down to personal opinion.

Look at the title of the thread, it specifically mentions "Job Identity". No other move in DRK's arsenal has it doing flips with it's heavy greatsword. Spins, sure, but not flips. Shadowstride fits DRK's identity better imo.

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Im gonna be blunt, this is a ship of theseus scenario for me. After having almost all of the original skills and themes ripped out of Dark Knight and replaced, is it still truly Dark Knight?

The main visual appeal for me was all these fast-paced attacks - the frontflip helmbreaker reminded me of Guts from Berserk, which I'm sure the job originally took inspirations from. Plunge was also the first and original tank dash in FFXIV, so there simply was a fair bit of sentimental value lost with the replacement.

Between losing both classic and nostalgic visual design, as well as any and all nuance over the years since at least 5.0, it would feel weird to not feel a wee bit sorry for the old guard of Dark Knight players.

Gonna be 100% honest here, I like Shadowstride more than plunge.
That said, I don't understand why the job couldn't have both buttons.WAR has 4 gap closers between two buttons and the world didn't end, and plunge itself was very much a load-bearing ogcd in terms of giving dark knight buttons to press outside of the burst.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

So true, Scourge is better than the entire current 123 DRK combo. It really sells the weight of the weapon while still looking like your character is badass enough to still swing it around with relative ease. 10/10 animation.

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Choosing souleater over delirium or power slash was a huge mistake for the combo finisher as well. Likewise the DT 1-2-3 combo in delirium is an exercise in "We don't know what we're doing" design. It's so extra, and yet it happens during a time where you literally can't see any of it because it's covered under a billion other spell graphics. Truly missed the mark on it.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Im gonna be blunt, this is a ship of theseus scenario for me. After having almost all of the original skills and themes ripped out of Dark Knight and replaced, is it still truly Dark Knight?

The main visual appeal for me was all these fast-paced attacks - the frontflip helmbreaker reminded me of Guts from Berserk, which I'm sure the job originally took inspirations from. Plunge was also the first and original tank dash in FFXIV, so there simply was a fair bit of sentimental value lost with the replacement.

Between losing both classic and nostalgic visual design, as well as any and all nuance over the years since at least 5.0, it would feel weird to not feel a wee bit sorry for the old guard of Dark Knight players.

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For me, I will never, ever, complain about any utility skill that has the damage component removed. I still remember all the problems that the 50 billion stuns caused for fight design back in ARR and HW. There's a reason interject was made as a skill, and it's because a utility skill had damage on it.

If they bring back plunge in any form, it should be brought back as something like WAR's primal rend. Part of the rotation, expected to be used, and its utility as a gap closer is a bonus that enterprising players can plan around, but never need.

Good riddance to gap closers with damage otherwise. You are not, and never will be, missed. It is literally the primary reason I hate playing WAR and PLD right now.

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Originally Posted by Volkien

I realise I'm being nitpicky with gameplay animations, which need to be fast and snappy. But part of DRK's identity is that the sword should always FEEL heavy to the player. Plunge never felt heavy to me.

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To me Plunge feels heavy exactly because of the fast animation. Heavy sword = more gravity. Mabye the starting animation does look a bit fast, but as you said, it's nitpick argument.

Meanwhile look at Shadowstride being lame af with a dash that feels floaty/weightless and our DRK weirdly spin the sword a bit.

I rather have 0 damage Plunge than Shadowstride. It's not even a cool dark magic teleport ala ascian teleport.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

If they bring back plunge in any form, it should be brought back as something like WAR's primal rend. Part of the rotation, expected to be used, and its utility as a gap closer is a bonus that enterprising players can plan around, but never need.

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While I'm fully on board with the idea of bringing back a big, weighty, helmbreaker style attack for DRK, we're running the risk of it being WAR 2.0 even MORE with something like this. Adding to the homogenization of the jobs (especially the tanks) which ideally we move AWAY from.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

For me, I will never, ever, complain about any utility skill that has the damage component removed. I still remember all the problems that the 50 billion stuns caused for fight design back in ARR and HW. There's a reason interject was made as a skill, and it's because a utility skill had damage on it.

If they bring back plunge in any form, it should be brought back as something like WAR's primal rend. Part of the rotation, expected to be used, and its utility as a gap closer is a bonus that enterprising players can plan around, but never need.

Good riddance to gap closers with damage otherwise. You are not, and never will be, missed. It is literally the primary reason I hate playing WAR and PLD right now.

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People have been throwing out suggestions for ways to keep the original gap closers since their removal was announced, the simplest ones being just removing the damage or adding a minimum range requirement. It isn't rocket science, and making new skills to replace them is CS3 making more work for themselves for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Volkien

It's better than a front flip helmbreaker. Obviously aesthetic preference is down to personal opinion.

Look at the title of the thread, it specifically mentions "Job Identity". No other move in DRK's arsenal has it doing flips with it's heavy greatsword. Spins, sure, but not flips. Shadowstride fits DRK's identity better imo.

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Originally, DRK's skillset formed around two colors: near-black blue, and red. Near black-blue gathered and manifested additional force (the manifested echo of magic), while red substituted reality around the DRK (pacted Void, untethered subjectivity/creation). This is why the red skills generally could move far more freely, allowing an easy swing with one hand (Scourge), can easy slash and draw-cut opposite gravity (Souleater), cartwheels the whole damn thing into a propeller (Bloodspiller), or just generally moves the thing as if it were just a thin bastard sword (Scarlet combo), etc.

Carve and Spit and Plunge were more of the latter, just without the overlying colors that were by then saved for GCD skills, while old Delirium (a GCD, which would otherwise be colored), Heavy Slash, etc. had to move with the weight of the blade.

For better or worse, the visual identity of DRK was purposely built largely around that of Guts from Berserk, and Plunge is a direct homage to that character. But the magical aspects of DRK are exactly what make it make sense.

If there's some overlap with Warrior, that's probably because (A) Guts is a Warrior with a greatsword and (B) there are only so many ways to visually distinguish someone able to channel aether to directly or indirectly make them a superhuman and leverage that capacity to hit harder/faster with a big weapon.

I'm on the team that movement abilities should not be tied to a damage component.

Because by doing so, they stop from being emergency buttons to move faster somewhere and become requirements to add into the rotation, even when you don't need to move.

The only situation I can see this working well with a damage component is in the case of SAM's Hissatsu movement actons, because there's a better way to spend the resources for it if you don't need to move.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I'm on the team that movement abilities should not be tied to a damage component.

Because by doing so, they stop from being emergency buttons to move faster somewhere and become requirements to add into the rotation, even when you don't need to move.

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They don't stop being greater reward A to become lesser reward B. They simply have a fall-back use that, if stars align to be best done at the same time as their primary use, puts a kit slightly ahead. (Or, if stupidly tuned around all possible charges being dumped inside of personal buffs and raid buffs both, then punish the job when less lucky, at which point if it were ever frequent and significant enough to be statistically noticeable, would then result in buffing something else by the difference in compensation.)


There's a far better solution for a damage-bearing utility skill feeling overly reduced to its mere damage than trimming down every skill into its identical bare bones: Make there more commonly more to the fight than mere damage. Don't give nearly-arena-sized hitboxes. Do give knockbacks, leap-aways, and/or more distant add-spawns. れ



A gap-closer on its own was an easier way to handle knockbacks than the likes of a combo-breaking Enpi or Req phase, devaluing what came before. Now we have no such complexity for gap-closers to devalue.

• Until we have more gaps than gap-closers, they're just a Simon Says mechanic: See mechanic type X. --> Use the mechanic-type-X-undoer button.
• Until then, gap-closers exist just to make being melee feel less constrained by being melee, just as the constant BLM simplifications attempted to make the previously most Caster-ly Caster feel like less of a Caster.
• Until then, it's effectively a button that's carried on your bar to amount to a cutscene of being pushed back but facing no consequences for being pushed back. It's Arms Length... but ad infinitum, and without needing any preemptive action.

Now, compare that to what a damage-bearing gap-closer offers:

• Because it actually has a potential opportunity cost that could otherwise be sacrificed, its use is partly preemptive, effectively reducing the leniency you'd otherwise have through which to undo mechanics by a full charge. Such rewards fight knowledge.
• Because it actually has use beyond merely undoing mechanical consequence, it contributes to APM regardless of context, instead of sitting idle until your next cue.

More importantly, though, having some jobs that can respond thoughtlessly to movement opportunities while others have to more going on around their movement-bearing skills adds variety. If we're to remove that variety, then it makes sense to at least go in the direction that offers the most skill expression (which people can then choose to interact with or not, since at least there's still variety in practice), instead of the way that removes cognitive load / gameplay / skill expression for everyone regardless.

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Just like positionals, cast-times, branching decision paths, resources that can actually be managed to at least some degree, oGCDs to be woven in (some at start of gap, others occasionally at gap's end), and the like, damage-bearing movement skills (or, movement-bearing attacks, whichever name you prefer) expand their moment of play and widen their interaction relative to complete freedom. If we're to remove that skill expression from some jobs, it should at least be done in the interest of variety and should be damn sure to replace by other means what skill expression was denied that job in swapping to completely discrete mobility skills.