Damage gap closer should vanish

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

With that logic it's also pointless changing it.

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This was exactly my point. It doesn't matter either way, and it's definitely not worth changing. I don't think the devs ever expected to be in a situation where for that negligible amount of damage players end up forcing their gapclosers into burst windows anyways, hence them now doing this rather rushed job with DRK and GNB.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

The question then is does the potency on the action mislead people into thinking it is actually relevant and not just a 'flavour' thing. If the potency was actually relevant, this would be a different discussion, but in my opinion, the potency is just a distraction.

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Maybe, but do we really need to remove all flavour just to accomodate even the least intellectually capable player who can't even figure out how little potency optimizing gapclosers for damage is?

Mind you, it's perfectly valid if someone wants to do that. Gives options. You should be able to realize it flat out could not matter any less if you use them outside of the window. But hey if that's your cup to do that, negligible as the result is, sure, you do you.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Maybe, but do we really need to remove all flavour just to accomodate even the least intellectually capable player who can't even figure out how little potency optimizing gapclosers for damage is?

Mind you, it's perfectly valid if someone wants to do that. Gives options. You should be able to realize it flat out could not matter any less if you use them outside of the window. But hey if that's your cup to do that, negligible as the result is, sure, you do you.

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Personally I find all those dashes that just look like Dragonball Z characters teleporting in space kinda weird, where a deep "Plunge" into the enemy by somersaulting into them with your greatsword feels way more appealing. Or using a jump attack by leaping into the air with a spear (Spineshatter Dive). Or throwing yourself into the enemy at full speed (Onslaught, Shoulder Tackle).

I don't mind if the potency is negligible... I want them to be attacks, not DBZ teleports or Dissidia Final Fantasy NT dashes.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Maybe, but do we really need to remove all flavour just to accomodate even the least intellectually capable player who can't even figure out how little potency optimizing gapclosers for damage is?

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Which is interesting you say that because, for a lot of people, just adding potency to something doesn't really count as adding 'flavour'.

I want to quickly point at SAM for a bit. Yes, it has potency on it's gap closer and increaser, but it costs Kenki and the potency is the same potency per Kenki as Shinten. This creates a state where you need to decide if it is worth spending the Kenki or of you would rather save it, especially if you are approaching the buff window and are looking to use Senei. Granted, SAM produces so much Kenki this decision isn't a big one, but tightening up Kenki and making it a bit rarer would put more emphasis on this aspect. It would also require a change in the combat were these actions are more useful.

For Paladin and Warrior, they are just damage. Slapping a Beast cost to Onslaught would mean your choice matters more as it could be the difference in having enough gauge for a Fell Cleave in the burst window or not.

Paladin is a bit harder as they have the unique advantage of having the strongest range game of all the tanks, so their need for a gap closer is diminished, let alone having charges on it. How we could make this more interesting and actually a choice with real impacts, I do not know.

Point is, flat potency with no real risk/reward isn't exciting. It needs to have an impact on the rest of your rotation to be a real, meaningful choice.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Which is interesting you say that because, for a lot of people, just adding potency to something doesn't really count as adding 'flavour'.

I want to quickly point at SAM for a bit. Yes, it has potency on it's gap closer and increaser, but it costs Kenki and the potency is the same potency per Kenki as Shinten. This creates a state where you need to decide if it is worth spending the Kenki or of you would rather save it, especially if you are approaching the buff window and are looking to use Senei. Granted, SAM produces so much Kenki this decision isn't a big one, but tightening up Kenki and making it a bit rarer would put more emphasis on this aspect. It would also require a change in the combat were these actions are more useful.

For Paladin and Warrior, they are just damage. Slapping a Beast cost to Onslaught would mean your choice matters more as it could be the difference in having enough gauge for a Fell Cleave in the burst window or not.

Paladin is a bit harder as they have the unique advantage of having the strongest range game of all the tanks, so their need for a gap closer is diminished, let alone having charges on it. How we could make this more interesting and actually a choice with real impacts, I do not know.

Point is, flat potency with no real risk/reward isn't exciting. It needs to have an impact on the rest of your rotation to be a real, meaningful choice.

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TL;DR Shadowbringers Onslaught.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

The question then is does the potency on the action mislead people into thinking it is actually relevant and not just a 'flavour' thing.

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Well now there is no relevance and no flavour. What an improvement!

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Which is absolutely true.

The question then is does the potency on the action mislead people into thinking it is actually relevant and not just a 'flavour' thing. If the potency was actually relevant, this would be a different discussion, but in my opinion, the potency is just a distraction.

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Having some potency on the movement skill still amounts to additional APM (and consequent animations VFX and minimum lockouts) and therefore to at least some reason for the button to exist beyond "Monkey see knockback/gap, Monkey undo knockback/gap with button that can only ever be used, at no cost or consideration, for expressly that purpose".

Yes, Stormblood Onslaught and now Gyoten (even if moreso if Senei/Guren went back to 50K and, say, Kaiten were returned) provide a sliver more cognitive load than most, but at least the other-potency-carrying gap closers still provide a tiny bit baseline, too, which will remain infinitely more than any non-damaging gap-closer for so long as we're not given both real and reward-varied use cases for them in excess of their recharge frequency.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Which is interesting you say that because, for a lot of people, just adding potency to something doesn't really count as adding 'flavour'.

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I know what I said, but you should also read my post just above the one you quoted. :P

Would actually-genuinely-interesting gapclosers be better? Of course. See my example from either earlier in this thread or another one about the topic, forgot where (one GCD gapcloser, one without damage, one conditionally with damage, one ranged AoE but no actual gapcloser).

Is the difference if we can't have genuinely unique stuff worth even setting an intern to change it? IMO no, not remotely so. I'd say the gain either way is so completely unimaginably unimportant that it'd not even be worth an intern reading this post here, nevermind the thread.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Why forced? This is supposedly an opportunity vs cost design, where you have to decide whether you want to use those abilities for best damage, or for mobility

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This isn't really an issue when the boss hitboxes are large enough where you basically never have to leave melee range. It's not as bad in DT but the design hasn't really changed much from EW. You're rarely put out of range of the boss.

I can't speak for WAR. But if this is supposed to be some sort of skill expression they really made a weird decision leaving the damage on PLD. There's only 1 time I can think in all of DT where I use this for mobility instead of just spamming it off CD and that's during the 3rd beat of Honey B. Literally everything else except maybe Brute Bomber I was able to just save Holy Spirit at those moments and not lose uptime.

These gap closers haven't really mattered much at all in EW or DT. They'd be way more useful in older content which is ironic since PLD and WAR don't get these till Stormblood levels.

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Originally Posted by ExiaKuromonji

This isn't really an issue when the boss hitboxes are large enough where you basically never have to leave melee range.

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Sure, but let's not pretend encounter- and class-design should needlessly mix its flaws.

The issue of rarely needing movement tools is on encounter design. Fully. It's not a tank specific issue either, plenty melee and some other jobs have movement tools, and yet they rarely use them for anything but damage because well, you rarely need them if ever. They feel superb when used for movement and you feel really clever, but that just goes to show how underutilized they are. A similar problem exists in how despite having 25-30 abilities, Healers use only 2 spells in their kit constantly because few bosses deal meaningful damage to the group, it's always minor attacks the tank nearly heals on their own + the odd raidwide every 20-60 seconds. Compare other games where the vast majority of spellcasting is spent on GCD heals due to the constant barrage of damage onto the raid both on single random and also area targets. Or compare the lack of meaningful distinction between casters, ranged and melees due to the lack of need for movement+range.

This needs to be fixed encounter-design-side. All of these.