2 melee 2 ranged standard

I believe that designing the fight considering 2 melee is the thing that guarantees the most fairness to the free spot in the party.

In EW, with the fact that melee have clearly been advantaged with huge hitboxes + reduction of positional (and combo interruption), that has reduced the expression of personal ability in maintaining uptime so much, as to actually make it much more convenient to bring, in the free spot, a melee instead of a caster or a prange.

With the new content, and with yoshi-p's statements, I expect that in the free spot it will no longer be *clearly* convenient to bring a melee into a midcore prog-clear static or in pf.

I think the big question that current job design raises is what function Physical Ranged DPS provides. If Physical Ranged DPS is about 'uptime', then you might expect that in fights with challenging uptime considerations you would see Physical Ranged pull ahead of everyone else, yet fights that challenge uptime still work out in favor of PCT given its mobility. If Physical Ranged DPS is about 'utility', then both raise casters and damage casters have them beat there. If it wasn't for the fact that Physical Ranged provides a role party bonus, groups would probably replace the slot with an additional Magical Ranged by default.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if more midcore pickup groups start automatically bypassing the Physical Ranged slot in favor of double Magical Ranged later on in the tier.

I agree with the fact that prange, over the years, has lost its importance. There should be something that makes a prange truly indispensable compared to other dps besides the fact that they facilitate plans and makes mechs strats thanks to their guaranteed mobility.
Previously, pranges allowed you to regenerate TP and mana and had very strong mitigations.
Didn't you bring a prange? you don't finish your rotation due to lack of mana or TP, oops. Didn't you bring a prange? prepare to die.

Now it's a: if you don't bring the prange you make 1% less global rdps. Clearly it's almost an insult.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's a bad idea from a fight design standpoint. 2/2/2/2 design is built around the idea that there are going to be four jobs that are obligate melee ranged, so you're constrained to resolve mechanics in a way that let four players maintain contact with the boss. If you add in an additional ranged as 'fake melee', then they can be off in another arena while the remaining three melee range jobs have comfy access to the boss. You're essentially bypassing constraints that designers can place on mechanics.

I also think that the current treatment of magical and physical ranged as 'separate roles' grows more superfluous with each passing expansion. PCT is highly mobile, lacks MP dependence, and comes with its own raidwide mitigation. They could have designated this as a physical ranged job if they wanted to. If physical ranged jobs automatically do less damage than magical ranged without even offering raise, it becomes hard to see the value in the role. They should probably abolish the requirement for one distinct magical ranged and one distinct physical ranged at this point and treat it as a single role with two slots.

I wonder if the long-term goal is for double caster to replace the physical ranged requirement.

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How is picto highly mobile? it's no better than red mage and slightly better than black mage in terms of mobility. Summoner on the other hand is a phys ranged in caster clothing. Do a fight with lots of ping based physics defying balls like Arcadion 2 or Strayborough Deadwalk boss 1. I no way you're not dropping a gcd without taking a hit on Picto.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think the big question that current job design raises is what function Physical Ranged DPS provides. If Physical Ranged DPS is about 'uptime', then you might expect that in fights with challenging uptime considerations you would see Physical Ranged pull ahead of everyone else, yet fights that challenge uptime still work out in favor of PCT given its mobility. If Physical Ranged DPS is about 'utility', then both raise casters and damage casters have them beat there. If it wasn't for the fact that Physical Ranged provides a role party bonus, groups would probably replace the slot with an additional Magical Ranged by default.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if more midcore pickup groups start automatically bypassing the Physical Ranged slot in favor of double Magical Ranged later on in the tier.

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Utility supposedly. Buffs as well.
Though really so many DPS have raidbuffs that it doesn't really matter, if only Phys range has raid buffs then maybe that would be their point.
We all know CBU3 is too scared to make them deal any real damage ever again after ARR.

I don't see that standard changing anytime soon. I also see plenty of groups who don't care about meta comps. It's usually not an issue. If one group is rigid, just find a different group.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

I agree with the fact that prange, over the years, has lost its importance. There should be something that makes a prange truly indispensable compared to other dps besides the fact that they facilitate plans and makes mechs strats thanks to their guaranteed mobility.
Previously, pranges allowed you to regenerate TP and mana and had very strong mitigations.
Didn't you bring a prange? you don't finish your rotation due to lack of mana or TP, oops. Didn't you bring a prange? prepare to die.

Now it's a: if you don't bring the prange you make 1% less global rdps. Clearly it's almost an insult.

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It is insulting and has been since shb.

I see no advangte with a fix of 2 meele, 2 ranger slots.
In random raids are mostly ranger classes very common. In addition would it increase the invite time, if the system has to wait specific for ranged dds (it take allready some time to find 2 healer and tanks).
And, i dont see, how fights mechanics can justify this splitt, without make one roles "useless".
Would they make hit boxes small again and would come a lot with close range aoe attacks, what force meele and tanks to run away, could they suffer the most (that is even the reason, why meele make the highest dmg, as much as i know).
And i can not image any mechanics, to slow down ranger than (except, if the Boss has buffs that make him immun again ranged attacks, like in first HW raid or Leviathan, but that even wouldnt work much, because, people would complain or they would need 2 targets, what would make this mechanic useless to).

The system whe have, give the player enough freedom. And at last i, never had situations, where Player wasnt allowed in a group, only, because they played ranged classes.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Yeah ok if your only argument is ad hominem because you actually have nothing to back it up, please save yourself the embarrassment.

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That absolutely wasn't only ad hominem. They brought 3 points and then end their comment with a snarky remark. Ad hominem isn't just insulting people, it's avoiding the argument and only insulting, which they didn't do.

They're also right by the way, saying pictomancer could be designated as a phys ranged is complete and utter bilge

Most strats are designed around 2 melee 2 ranged. Many people get mad when you do 3 ranged because that means 1 ranged has to be a fake melee and most of the time in PF those ranged players mess it up everytime.