Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

Here's a quote from YOU earlier.:


You're the last person here who has any right to complain about personal attacks.
Every "mean" comment directed at you came AFTER that.

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You think Wuk Lamat doesn't have character growth. Not 'doesn't have good character growth', but doesn't have any at all. That either requires not understanding what character growth is, or not understanding Dawntrail.

But I don't care about that. I care about what you keep dancing around. Now, can you please say the quiet part loud like you want to, and say what the 'personal, emotional' reason I like Wuk Lamat is that you seem so sure I'm hiding? That isn't the simple reason of 'I find her fun and think she is relatable'? You seem to think you've got some secret gotcha, so really, don't hold back.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

You think Wuk Lamat doesn't have character growth. Not 'doesn't have good character growth', but doesn't have any at all. That either requires not understanding what character growth is, or not understanding Dawntrail.

But I don't care about that. I care about what you keep dancing around. Now, can you please say the quiet part loud like you want to, and say what the 'personal, emotional' reason I like Wuk Lamat is that you seem so sure I'm hiding? That isn't the simple reason of 'I find her fun and think she is relatable'? You seem to think you've got some secret gotcha, so really, don't hold back.

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My primary reason for wrting in this forum in the first place is to provide feedback to the developers and give my reasons to why the writer of this MSQ needs to be immediately fired.
I think I and other people her already gave sufficient reasons for that.

The reason why I assumed some hidden reason was out of genuine frustration and confusion and because of the insults and vitriol you showed us.
And even if that reason is what I think it is, its not even relevant, since I already achieved my primary goal, which i stated above.

In hindsight, assuming some ulterior motive like this was petty and I have to apologize for my conduct.
Therefore, elaborating on that reason would be an actual personal attack, and I already acused you of being an "enlightened Poet".
And I'm not so boorish to perform armchair-psychology to win an argument on the internet.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

You're the last person here who has any right to complain about personal attacks.
Every "mean" comment directed at you came AFTER that.

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I would avoid getting too heated with Cleretic. Especially when you see something like this:

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

But I don't care about that. I care about what you keep dancing around. Now, can you please say the quiet part loud like you want to, and say what the 'personal, emotional' reason I like Wuk Lamat is that you seem so sure I'm hiding? That isn't the simple reason of 'I find her fun and think she is relatable'? You seem to think you've got some secret gotcha, so really, don't hold back.

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I believe you (honest_pyscho) are arguing rather well. My personal opinion on the story is that Wuk Lamat is the worst character ever written in FFXIV. As my previous post would imply, she is a Black Hole Sue who warps the game, its plots, and lore around her shredding anything that comes to close only to consume it should it wander ever too close. It is why I believe beloved characters, such as G'raha Tia and Y'shtola, are largely absent from the story as they know the ramifications of getting close to a black hole, thus know to stay away from the literal personification of one.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Now, can you please say the quiet part loud like you want to, and say what the 'personal, emotional' reason I like Wuk Lamat

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I am bored so I will take the bait:

The main trait I can you seeing a part of yourself in Wuk Lamat is that you can related to her naïvety. This is clearly visible based on the conversations going on around you and honest_psycho here. Outside of this, I would find certain things difficult to associate since, from my time here observing, you don't exactly have the magnetic personality that Wuk Lamat is most well known for. To put it into literary/trope terms, where Wuk Lamat is the Black Hole Sue, you are the anti-Sue, so perhaps it is a matter of opposite tropes being attracted to each other. I do think what answer you are looking for probably is not one of the ones I listed above since you are tenaciously grasping for an answer.

One of my biggest issues with the game was there was far too much saccharine. I mean, everything was "THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP AND HAPPINESS" more so than in the previous expansions and it all felt a bit much.

And this usually took the form of Wuk Lamat. Who is jammed in our faces at all points in the game, whether we liked it or not. We weren't given much agency to draw our own conclusions and most everything was black and white.

That was a little grating to me.

Wuk Lamat is great, some of you are just incapable of joy.

Most of the complaints I see levied against Dawntrail's MSQ are CinemaSins-tier "welp, that's another trope" mentions, which doesn't really say anything. All fiction can be reduced in that way.

As for forum scuffles...

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I don't think this is a problem with Daichi Hiroi at all, but the challenge with Krile and Erenville is that they're designed for a different purpose than 'being the central character of a story', and so giving them a story that they're central to, even a side-story like Dawntrail does, leads to a bit of difficulty in crafting that story.

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I find this to be a well thought-out consideration of the challenges in the writing process. While I definitely hoped for more from Erenville and Krile, it's incredibly difficult to write punchy stories with characters that were historically written to play a supportive or subdued role without completely changing their characters. In this way it very much makes sense that they exist in Wuk Lamat's metaphorical orbit, as she is a much stronger character unburdened by previous expectations.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

This is entirely due to a lack of talent and creativity of the writer, because he wanted to put WL on a pedestal, WHICH IS THE POINT OF CONTENTION, NOT THE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

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This feels like the typical "find a target, choose a minor grievance, escalate to harassment" strategy I've grown to dislike seeing plastered all over the internet.


I do think people like to put specific writers up on a pedestal (or a gallows) when in reality expansions aren't just the work of one person. IIRC in interviews some CS3 staff mentioned that they're splitting up the workload more for DT, which I definitely felt. Dawntrail in particular benefits a bit from the writing feeling a bit more disjointed, as it emphasizes the theme of diversity. Simultaneously, it's also a breath of fresh air having a consistent, immersive experience all within the same continent despite this!

Wdym, I'm having the time of my life here, lmao.

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Originally Posted by jadeharley

This feels like the typical "find a target, choose a minor grievance, escalate to harassment" strategy I've grown to dislike seeing plastered all over the internet.

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> find a target
I came here to provide feedback for the developers and provide my reasons.
I didn't target anyone, all my questions and arguments were made out of genuine confusion/curiocity or logical conviction.

> choose a minor grievance
Being called an iliterate idiot for not liking a character is not a "minor grievance", its an insult.

> escalate to harassment
Being agitated and rude in response to being insulted is not "harassment", its "eye for an eye".
Be nice to me, and I'm nice to you.

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Originally Posted by jadeharley

I find this to be a well thought-out consideration of the challenges in the writing process. While I definitely hoped for more from Erenville and Krile, it's incredibly difficult to write punchy stories with characters that were historically written to play a supportive or subdued role without completely changing their characters. In this way it very much makes sense that they exist in Wuk Lamat's metaphorical orbit, as she is a much stronger character unburdened by previous expectations.

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It's a problem that the game's grappled with before, too, in different forms; I think the main reason Yda became Lyse is because she was a character conceived of for a role that couldn't plausibly take center-stage. But Lyse also shows the issues with essentially overhauling a character to take a lead role, which is something you'd have to do to give Krile or (especially) Erenville an even temporary lead role. I honestly don't think most of the people who hate Lyse are genuinely coming from this angle, although it certainly turns up in their complaints, but it really is pretty hard to suddenly buy that the ditzy comic relief character is now a serious lead in a story about fighting an oppressive government, and I can't say the attempt was an unmitigated success.

In thinking about it, I also wonder if it might explain some of the other gaps in character development across the game. Like, Y'shtola's in the same box as Krile in being a character designed for a subdued supportive role, but unlike Krile she doesn't have any lingering mysteries in her past to build a story around. So maybe that's why Y'shtola's appeared to never have any character development; because writing 'a Y'shtola character development story' is somehow even more impossible than Krile, who at least has some plot hooks that are well-suited for the sort of story she can participate in.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

It's a problem that the game's grappled with before, too, in different forms; I think the main reason Yda became Lyse is because she was a character conceived of for a role that couldn't plausibly take center-stage. But Lyse also shows the issues with essentially overhauling a character to take a lead role, which is something you'd have to do to give Krile or (especially) Erenville an even temporary lead role. I honestly don't think most of the people who hate Lyse are genuinely coming from this angle, although it certainly turns up in their complaints, but it really is pretty hard to suddenly buy that the ditzy comic relief character is now a serious lead in a story about fighting an oppressive government, and I can't say the attempt was an unmitigated success.

In thinking about it, I also wonder if it might explain some of the other gaps in character development across the game. Like, Y'shtola's in the same box as Krile in being a character designed for a subdued supportive role, but unlike Krile she doesn't have any lingering mysteries in her past to build a story around. So maybe that's why Y'shtola's appeared to never have any character development; because writing 'a Y'shtola character development story' is somehow even more impossible than Krile, who at least has some plot hooks that are well-suited for the sort of story she can participate in.

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I mean, Y'shtola could be developed more if they brought Y'mitra into the msq. There's always somewhere to go. Thancred and Urianger have proven that.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

I mean, Y'shtola could be developed more if they brought Y'mitra into the msq. There's always somewhere to go. Thancred and Urianger have proven that.

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Except that Y'mhitra has the exact same problem, she's ALSO a largely put-together passive supporting character who exists to tell us things we should then do. She isn't somehow a ticket to heavy character depth, even if introducing characters with connections to them is a pretty decent angle.

Thancred had the advantage of being damn near the only Scion who had a plot hook back in 1.0, in his connection with F'lahminn and Minfilia, so it was natural to build on that in a storyline. Urianger is... much weirder, because while they did get some early juice out of Moenbryda, the main thing they got out of him was giving him an entirely unique role--the weird spy and saboteur--and then build him character scenes out of that.

If I were to try to do a Y'shtola character development story mainly through focus on a character interaction rather than something like a mystery, my first angle would be Runar, but he's a bit far away. My second angle would be to bring in not Y'mhitra, but the Y tribe itself, or at least their nunh. I don't think a story like this would really let Y'shtola play to her strengths, but perhaps the angle for her actually is to go for the weak spot.