Yoshi P in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

With respect, I don't think there is an easy solution to the Kaiten issue. I assume that you mean that the "easy solution" is to just add Kaiten back to the game? But the developers had reasons for removing it, reasons that they stand by. It's fair for you to disagree with that; in fact, it makes sense that you would, considering those reasons were to improve the game's accessibility — which is something that you personally don't directly benefit from — and the method to increase that accessibility was to remove something you liked. A rollback would be positive for players like you, but be negative for the players the devs made the change to improve the experience for; there's nothing easy about deciding which demographic of players to inconvenience when push comes to shove.

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Their reason for removing Kaiten was button bloat. But Samurai has other examples of button bloat that would have made FAR more sense to remove.

Some examples:

Have Ikishoten turn into Ogi Namikiri.

Merge Shoha and Shoha 2 (560 to first target, 200 to all nearby enemies).

Boom button/action bloat reduced, no change to the gameplay. Now you can keep Kaiten while meeting the original goal!

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

With respect, I don't think there is an easy solution to the Kaiten issue. I assume that you mean that the "easy solution" is to just add Kaiten back to the game? But the developers had reasons for removing it, reasons that they stand by. It's fair for you to disagree with that; in fact, it makes sense that you would, considering those reasons were to improve the game's accessibility — which is something that you personally don't directly benefit from — and the method to increase that accessibility was to remove something you liked. A rollback would be positive for players like you, but be negative for the players the devs made the change to improve the experience for; there's nothing easy about deciding which demographic of players to inconvenience when push comes to shove.

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Why would one of the most popular jobs need more accessibility? Both skill floor and ceiling is low enough anyway. Why should the changes be aimed at players that don't even play the job, instead to those that main it? And looking at some poll from some youtuber that Ren Thras linked me, it seems that SAM popularity in EW has dropped compared to ShB, and that poll seems to be recent. Obviously better data would be 6.08 vs 6.1, but that's the best we can get.

Those reasons they provided are factually incorrect. Action bloat was proven wrong, it does only change APM outside of the burst and at best, it potentially removes 1 action from burst if you pool 100 Kenki. Button bloat is community made reason, and future proofing is bad excuse, why would you remove something to make a space for new ability, that still didn't come 1.5 years later?

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Additionally, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "biggest outlier", but if the magnitude of negative feedback for Kaiten is only a few hundred out of the millions of players the game has, then it wouldn't be ranking among the highest magnitude of feedback. So yeah, I would say it's reasonable not to expect CBU3 to act on feedback provided by any group that's even smaller than that. My best advice would be that when you provide feedback for a game, never, ever expect anything to come of it. At best, you can hope they'll listen and consider your feedback. But replies and changes are a rarity.

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There was like 22 changes to SAM in 6.1 patch notes, basically Kaiten removal, making Tenka a goddamn circle for some reason, implementing 4 guaranteed crits (keep in mind that compensation for that was implemented in 6.2), and generally putting potency from big hits to regular GCDs, so now Midare deals about same damage as 2.5 regular GCDs. It even deals less damage than some tank skills. But people don't usually put whole essay about this, they just pinpoint the biggest outlier/frontman, which is Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I'll also say that if I were Yoshi-P, I wouldn't respond further to this issue. If Yoshi-P did give you an additional response and told you something along the lines of

"Thanks for the feedback, as expected there were some players who felt negatively about the changes, but that was only a minority of players, so we're sticking with our design,"

...would you be satisfied? I can't speak for you, but I'm guessing most of the pro-Kaiten players wouldn't be. The response they want is a response they agree with, and they've already made it clear they disagree with Yoshi-P's stance. And those players are going to pick apart every last word of what Yoshi-P said, which will fuel a new wave of backlash. The smarter move is to say nothing at all. Especially since the message is only directed at a small subset of players anyway.

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What makes you think that it's small subset of players? SAM became most talked job, the "majority" argument is terrible, once again, you won't ever get all players' opinion, that's fine, you just need to learn how to extrapolate data. If this amount of feedback for single specific job is not enough, nothing else is.

Those 100+ likes on Celesti's thread is good chunk, especially since there is 150+ thread just on EN forums. At most in these forums I've seen about 350, and that's about general topics or about roles as a whole, 100+ likes for single job is really decent, and it seems that it's biggest one compared to the rest of the jobs on these forums in EW.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I guess I'd say to write in to the Live Letters, post a message in the forums every few months, respond to any surveys that FF14 sends out. I imagine that gives you the best chance of being heard. But it's just a chance.

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I think I'll pass on that. From people that did those, I've seen multiple that got response from other twich chatters that told them to off themselves. GCBTW.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

And vitally, accept the fact that these efforts might never bear fruit, and find peace with that. Find ways to continue offering the feedback but to simultaneously allow yourself to move on. It's hard to do this. But it's probably the best path towards health and happiness.

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Honestly, if EW wasn't lacking content, I probably wouldn't even be there complaining about it. I still do play SAM, it just feels bad to know that I'm playing worse iteration of job that I like.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

It really would be great if the devs could take the consolidation tech from moves like PLD's Confiteor and SMN's Gemshine and apply them to existing classes. I'm 100% onboard for this! Though there may be valid reasons they don't do it? Even though I'd love it? XD

Though even if they did such a thing, they might still feel like the lack of Kaiten makes things even better? Or there may be supplemental reasons in addition to the primary reason. Which is just to say, I would suggest tempering hopes. But it would be nice if a solution like this did work and made everyone happy! ^^

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Considering I have not see them talking about button bloat, I doubt it. They even added extra skill to PLD in 6.3, and that job already had most skills in the whole game.

But yeah, at the very least, Iki should merge into Ogi, there's no reason why it shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Their reason for removing Kaiten was button bloat. But Samurai has other examples of button bloat that would have made FAR more sense to remove.

Some examples:

Have Ikishoten turn into Ogi Namikiri.

Merge Shoha and Shoha 2 (560 to first target, 200 to all nearby enemies).

Boom button/action bloat reduced, no change to the gameplay. Now you can keep Kaiten while meeting the original goal!

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It really would be great if the devs could take the consolidation tech from moves like PLD's Confiteor and SMN's Gemshine and apply them to existing classes. I'm 100% onboard for this! Though there may be valid reasons they don't do it? Even though I'd love it? XD

Though even if they did such a thing, they might still feel like the lack of Kaiten makes things even better? Or there may be supplemental reasons in addition to the primary reason. Which is just to say, I would suggest tempering hopes. But it would be nice if a solution like this did work and made everyone happy! ^^

Imo, it boils down to the job design team obsessing over making jobs appeal to players who don't like them. Whether it's intentional "everything has to appeal to everybody" blandness or just the result of entrusting 19 jobs to like 4 people, I dunno. Apply Hanlon's Razor as you see fit.

Beyond SAM, we've had SMN and MCH gutted multiple times, we've had DRK forced into new identities a few times, PLD recently got changed hard, BRD is shafted pretty regularly, NIN's entire world was flipped upside down with mudra changes. And god, poor Astro (and more broadly, healers in general). Some of the changes were broadly accepted, some contested, but almost none achieved their goal of giving mass appeal to jobs from people who disliked them previously. At best it got a few Andies to play them in roulettes more but most stick to their main unless there's a strong meta reason to switch.

Not that that will stop SE though. DRG and AST are probably gonna end up butchered too come 7.0, as well as them finishing whatever hatchet job they started on SAM. God only knows what redesign MCH will undergo for Dawntrail too, since every expansion they seem to get stuff rolled around.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Why would one of the most popular jobs need more accessibility?

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I presume that Yoshi-P would like for even more players can enjoy it, and the more accessible it is, the more incoming players can do that. This is just my guess, but they seem to be making a big push to make the game more welcoming to casual players.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Both skill floor and ceiling is low enough anyway.

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With respect, all I can say is that this is subjective. It seems like Yoshi-P disagrees with your opinion on that, though. And it makes sense that if you have different opinions on this then you'd both be in conflict over actions taken using this as the basis.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Those reasons they provided are factually incorrect. Action bloat was proven wrong, it does only change APM outside of the burst and at best, it potentially removes 1 action from burst if you pool 100 Kenki. Button bloat is community made reason, and future proofing is bad excuse, why would you remove something to make a space for new ability, that still didn't come 1.5 years later?

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I don't think you can "disprove" the concept of action bloat because it's a subjective opinion. It seems like you don't feel it's a thing, but in my experience I feel like it's a major thing for all classes. I hope that as things go forward, the devs can find more elegant ways to please both camps.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

What makes you think that it's small subset of players? SAM became most talked job, the "majority" argument is terrible, once again, you won't ever get all players' opinion, that's fine, you just need to learn how to extrapolate data. If this is not enough, nothing else is.

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Good question, I'll explain. Forums always skew towards hardcore players, and they always skew towards players with negative opinions, which is why they shouldn't ever be treated as representative of the overall player population. It's still good to listen to the feedback there, but it's not a good way to gauge what the overall player base is feeling.

However, Yoshi-P explicitly requested that those who were displeased with the Kaiten change say so on the forums. Out of the 100,000's of players who viewed this request during the Live Letter, less than 400 thought the changes were worth answering Yoshi-P's call to action. To frame that another way, of the X00,000 viewers across Twitch and YouTube who were engaged enough with FF14 to bother watching the Live Letter, less than 0.4% of them were opposed to the change enough to say so when Yoshi-P explicitly asked them to. That's a small subset of players.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

I think I'll pass on that. From people that did those, I've seen multiple that got response from other twich chatters that told them to off themselves. GCBTW.

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Ugh, that sucks, I had no idea. That's terrible. I can understand not wanting to do that then.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Honestly, if EW wasn't lacking content, I probably wouldn't even be there complaining about it. I still do play SAM, it just feels bad to know that I'm playing worse iteration of job that I like.

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Yeah, I feel you there. I was once a WHM main T^T. But things have changed and the result is that I've moved to other classes for the most part. If things change again, I'd be happy to go back to it, but I'm not holding out hope for that; instead, I just try to get the joy I can out of the classes I enjoy as they are now, and I cross my fingers that when changes come they'll improve instead of diminish my enjoyment. ^^;

XI & XIV fans are triggered atm, but at least you are not down bad like XVI fans......the former 2 actually get good marks and sell without monetary bribes. Notwithstanding SE's most profitable.

SE may become an online gaming company imo. Or, at least prioritize it.

I mean, the guy thinks RPGs should have no/minimal traditional rpg elements outside of ‘Fantasy aesthetics’ and some recurring names, and we’re really only just becoming dubious of his design philosophies? Or thinking that 19 jobs can be designed and balance by like four people, and then decides to add two more . Right, I’m sure that will go great…not like there’s any issues with the overall combat system right now (ignoring the SAM, SMN and all Healers crying in the corner lol)

I feel like Yoshida is great with conceptualisation, but performs poorly when it comes to actual implementation of said concepts. Not that there’s anything wrong with that; it’s unreasonable to expect one person to be capable of everything . But at the same time it’s beginning to feel like we’re not playing ‘Final Fantasy’ anymore, we’re playing ‘Yoshida Game XIV’, ‘Yoshida game XVI’, etc. Cant wait for him to design FFXVII as a battle royale first person shooter, because young people don’t like rpg elements and jrpg is a slur ’ lol. How many people have to tell you ‘this is a bad idea’ before you realize lol. Players have been calling out the awful choices made in ffxiv for years and barely get more than some condescending comments about playing ultimates or turning it into a joke

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Always?

https://media.tenor.com/wIxFiobxxbIA...ameson-lol.gif

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Yeah pretty much always taking consideration, Yes but just because they take consideration of it doesn't mean they're going to implement it or they can figure out a way to put it in the game with the systems they have or feel that they can't put in there in a way that won't piss off the player base more. I'm sure consideration is probably taking until a lot of things but priority on what they're going to work on is going to be there as well

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I presume that Yoshi-P would like for even more players can enjoy it, and the more accessible it is, the more incoming players can do that. This is just my guess, but they seem to be making a big push to make the game more welcoming to casual players.

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But the question is why? There is 19 jobs already, wouldn't it be better to make jobs as distinct as possible, both in sense of job fantasy, gameplay and difficulty? Look at healers, if you don't like the way WHM plays, you will very likely not like other healers because they're just so similar in so many ways.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

With respect, all I can say is that this is subjective. It seems like Yoshi-P disagrees with your opinion on that, though. And it makes sense that if you have different opinions on this then you'd both be in conflict over actions taken using this as the basis.

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Low skill ceiling is objectively bad. Easy to learn, hard to master, that is pillar of skill expression. Plenty of gamers want that. But we have easy to learn, easy to master, difference between SMN who played for 2 hours or 2 years is minimal.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I don't think you can "disprove" the concept of action bloat because it's a subjective opinion. It seems like you don't feel it's a thing, but in my experience I feel like it's a major thing for all classes. I hope that as things go forward, the devs can find more elegant ways to please both camps.

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Why couldn't I? Existence is subjective, yes, but whether changes actually changed something, that is factual. Rotations are static, in your typical midare first opener, number of executed actions is identical as it was in 6.08, with possible 1 extra action in even minute burst if you pool Kenki properly. Then you have lower APM outside of your burst, but that's close to irrelevant, EW's 2 minutes meta means that if there is action bloat, it's always inside your burst. Shinten is 25 Kenki, Kaiten was 20, that 20 Kenki is transferred to Shinten instead, you don't need to simulate timeline to realize that this wouldn't change a lot. So did this change decrease APM and potential action bloat? Yes. By significant value? Not at all, if my math is right, only by 4% in even burst window if you pool Kenki properly. You could also argue that Kaiten had strict place in your rotation, so you can now move Shinten to different weave window. But why? SAM was known for strict rotation.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Good question, I'll explain. Forums always skew towards hardcore players, and they always skew towards players with negative opinions, which is why they shouldn't ever be treated as representative of the overall player population. It's still good to listen to the feedback there, but it's not a good way to gauge what the overall player base is feeling.

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It's devs job to extrapolate data out of small subset of players. And what happens, if players start to feel like their feedback is being ignored? They give up, and stop giving it, then we get smaller subset of player, it's self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

However, Yoshi-P explicitly requested that those who were displeased with the Kaiten change say so on the forums. Out of the 100,000's of players who viewed this request during the Live Letter, less than 400 thought the changes were worth answering Yoshi-P's call to action. To frame that another way, of the X00,000 viewers across Twitch and YouTube who were engaged enough with FF14 to bother watching the Live Letter, less than 0.4% of them were opposed to the change enough to say so when Yoshi-P explicitly asked them to. That's a small subset of players.

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0.4% expressing feedback doesn't mean only 0.4% disagree with it. ChatGPT tells me that percent of dissatisfied players that decide to leave feedback can be anywhere from 5%-40%, this could transform those 0.4% to potential 1% to 8%. Then you also want to account for the fact that SAM is just one job out of 19, only fraction of those 100 000 viewers play or care about SAM. They really didn't talk about Kaiten in LL 70, they just skimmed over it, and talked about it in patch reading stream, which has even worse english coverage, which is another problem. In fact, I didn't know there was any conversation about it in that stream, until I dug deep into the issue while researching for my Kaiten thread.

Then also account for the fact that community is pretty split into people playing the game, and into people "playing" the game. Author of Mare mod supposedly calculated that 14% of all players use his mod. Which might be overshot, but the fact is that the mod tracks active players currently using it, and that number seems to be 20K, which is comparable to current number of all steam players.

But those are all absolute numbers, you should go with relative numbers. Biggest thread in EW in here is about the EW's story, with 1.2M views and 850 pages, that is main element of the game, that affects us all. So if there is 150+ threads, with biggest ones having some 50 pages and 85K views, which are dedicated to much smaller part of the game, which is one individual job, then I would say that's relatively large subset of players.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Yeah, I feel you there. I was once a WHM main T^T. But things have changed and the result is that I've moved to other classes for the most part. If things change again, I'd be happy to go back to it, but I'm not holding out hope for that; instead, I just try to get the joy I can out of the classes I enjoy as they are now, and I cross my fingers that when changes come they'll improve instead of diminish my enjoyment. ^^;

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After 6.1, I started playing more PLD. Then 6.3 PLD rework happened, and I rather went back to maining SAM.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F3LSz3Bb...g&name=900x900