Why is everyone anxious about a PLD Rework?

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Originally Posted by Curisu

With intervention he even has the strongest skill to help the MT. A other tank can take a shared buster alone, when he gets a buffed intervention.

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you do know GNB's Heart of Corundum is 15% + 15% for the first four seconds, right? That's hella strong too, and it doesn't cost the entire kit of GNB's own CDs to be forcefed into buffing this 'help the co-tank' move. Nice you can get the other tank to solo a shared TB, now you've got no CDs of your own for the next minute and a half. I understand that Holy Sheltron/Intervention got the regen attached because PLD had no selfsustain before, but WAR has Storm's Path, GNB has Brutal Shell and DRK has Souleater. PLD doesn't have an equivalent. The Holy Sheltron heal is, if anything, a HOT equivalent to the Heart of Corunudum proc'd heal, right? But GNB has 2 stacks of Aurora to play with too. WAR has Equilibrium. PLD getting Clemency in some OGCD capacity would only make the class MORE versatile, not less. Oh, and Block doesn't work on Bleeds, which is especially relevant in this tier. PLD melts like paper in the rain compared to the other tanks this tier, and to top it all off, it's got an invuln CD so long, WAR can almost get twice as many uses of theirs (and before SHB, actually could).

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Depends on what fight you base your math on and what you want to mitigate.

Overall I would say that all Tank's are fine with mitigation right now. Especially after the living dead adjustment.

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It doesn't. PLD is the tank with the lowest sustain and personal mitigation by a mile, and it also has the weakest party support because Wings is unlikely to get the whole group unless it's a downtime thing anyway (which is always "throw the sink at it" anyway, so wings doesn't even matter here) and Cover may as well not exist. If you are remotely honest with the math, PLD comes out on the bottom in any equation. There's a reason Square-Enix is reworking it.

If you want to "save your friends," play DRK. TBN is a better buddy-saving tool than Clemency could ever hope to be.

Just to continue on about how bad cover is, Intervention is objectively better.

I don't now if Cover takes into PLD's innate 20% damage reduction (so, if an attack was targeting a healer for 10K, it would only do 8K to the PLD), however, if you had instead used Intervention, that is base 10% damage reduction, plus another 10% from Knight's Resolve plus the 1000 potency Regen from Knight's Benediction.

Sure, you could increase Cover's effectiveness by using Rampart or Sentinel, but they do also buff Intervention, plus, depending on timing, you could lose out on using them for a tank buster.

As for the after healing, the healer has to either heal you as the tank, or the one the attack was directed against, it makes no difference.

Even then, any attack directed at another party member is not going to be designed to kill them to the pint you have to use Cover, other tanks don't have that and you cannot force a certain job to be required.

Overall, with Intervention, Cover is redundant. If they want Cover to stay, it has to be strictly better than Intervention. This would then lead to a disparity where Cover is better for the odd mechanic and Intervention is used for (shared) Tank Busters.

I suppose, in theory, you could cover someone who is about to die to the next mechanic, but that is a very niche use that Intervention might not be able to save them from but is this one niche enough to keep Cover?

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Originally Posted by Curisu

PLD has enough self-healing and self sustain on max Level with his whole magic rotation healing him plus a HoT on holy shiltron and intervention.
He doesn't need more free direct healing.
The clemency option is good as it is now.

With intervention he even has the strongest skill to help the MT. A other tank can take a shared buster alone, when he gets a buffed intervention.

I don't really understand why some player think that PLD need more/ different defensive tools. I think his current mitigation kit is the best and most versatile of all tanks.

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Alright let me argue this from a different perspective, because I actually really like clemency and agree that it's fine, it being a niche GCD option makes it good for solo duties or some progression situations, I can remember actually using clemency in hard content and casual content. That being said clemency shouldn't be taxed (like you wouldn't/Shouldn't tax vercure on RDM).

I do not agree with the statement that PLD's tanky enough a major issue with PLD's sustain is that the Paladin cannot choose when they wanna use their biggest burst sustain, as most of its tied to damage rotations, which isn't great for the job, I rather PLD get a OCD burst heal and reduce their magic rotational healing.

Intervention point is "ok", the issue is when it comes down to it Warrior for example has a effect that will heal both targets, Tanks such as gunbreaker and Dark knight have a lot more smaller mitigations such as Oblation or aurora along with another personal CD, so they can also help with double tank busters, it isn't really "paladin exclusive ability" to be useful on double tank busters when a dark knight could use dark mind and oblation on self then give TBN to the MT.

In summary PLD Issues are: Controlled sustain, lacks 2 Personals, has useless abilities such as "Cover", Blocking being Janky, depedent on auto attacks for personal cooldowns, DV being a worse shake it off and also being clunky, Passage of arms being too situational, Intervention actually just being a worser CD then all the other tank cds

The benefits of Paladin are pretty much a joke If you want a tank with sustain? go warrior, if you want a tank with mitigation? go dark knight, want a tank with a bit of both go gunbreaker, two of which also do more damage and all are way more simple to play.

I think they need to reduce req/confit healing and put that somewhere else giving PLD a OCD heal (Not replacing clemency, because its a good ability), would generally be a good step, fixing up cover and DV/Passage and making Holy shelltron less clunky would generally at least put PLD a bit more in line with other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think they need to reduce req/confit healing and put that somewhere else giving PLD a OCD heal (Not replacing clemency, because its a good ability), would generally be a good step, fixing up cover and DV/Passage and making Holy shelltron less clunky would generally at least put PLD a bit more in line with other tanks.

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An idea that came to me while I was going to the fridge to get a drink just now, with Holy Sheltron and the Knight's Benediction regen effect on it and Intervention, I wonder if the solution is as simple as just adding an extra line to the Oath Gauge trait that says 'When the Paladin Autoattacks or suffers damage, they generate 5 Oath Gauge'. So being MT would allow them to get much more gauge, leading to more Sheltron regen effect, and allowing them to throw more Interventions on the Co-Tank if eg the PLD is OT but takes a TB that applies a bleed. Each tick of that bleed would generate 5 Oath Gauge too, so they'd be able to regen their way through the bleed they normally struggle with a bit easier (Block doesn't mitigate bleeds)

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think they need to reduce req/confit healing and put that somewhere else giving PLD a OCD heal (Not replacing clemency, because its a good ability), would generally be a good step, fixing up cover and DV/Passage and making Holy shelltron less clunky would generally at least put PLD a bit more in line with other tanks.

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I mean, no. Clemency is a garbage ability that is *literally unused* outside of the occasional odd scenario in blind prog.

You actually described exactly why Clemency sucks so much - it's a worse version of buttons all of the other tanks get, because unlike those buttons, Clemency costs DPS. It would be like if TBN didn't give Dark Arts, except even then TBN would still be better because you're not losing a GCD on top of the mana (and the amount of shielding is quite a lot more than the amount healed by Clemency, besides.)

Given PLD's lack of both personal defenses and buddy skills (Intervention is a flatly worse buddy skill than any other tank button, except for when you're using it on another tank and you're both kitchen sinking a tankbuster... at which point it's basically just breaking even), making Clemency actually usable in a practical sense is the obvious step to take. It's an iconic PLD ability that never sees use, and unlike Cover, you can actually fix it to be useful without breaking the game. Making it an oGCD that costs gauge fixes the ability completely... assuming you're making Sheltron the same 20/25 sec cooldown personal defense button with no cost that the other tanks have.

I'm assuming we're talking about a setting wherein they fix Sheltron's issues with how they designed tank damage to operate - that is, they make block affect dots and the like. I can't imagine they aren't going to be doing that, or otherwise boosting Sheltron's personal effects such that PLD is no longer taking a substantially larger amount of damage than other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I mean, no. Clemency is a garbage ability that is *literally unused* outside of the occasional odd scenario in blind prog.

You actually described exactly why Clemency sucks so much - it's a worse version of buttons all of the other tanks get, because unlike those buttons, Clemency costs DPS. It would be like if TBN didn't give Dark Arts, except even then TBN would still be better because you're not losing a GCD on top of the mana (and the amount of shielding is quite a lot more than the amount healed by Clemency, besides.)

Given PLD's lack of both personal defenses and buddy skills (Intervention is a flatly worse buddy skill than any other tank button, except for when you're using it on another tank and you're both kitchen sinking a tankbuster... at which point it's basically just breaking even), making Clemency actually usable in a practical sense is the obvious step to take. It's an iconic PLD ability that never sees use, and unlike Cover, you can actually fix it to be useful without breaking the game. Making it an oGCD that costs gauge fixes the ability completely... assuming you're making Sheltron the same 20/25 sec cooldown personal defense button with no cost that the other tanks have.

I'm assuming we're talking about a setting wherein they fix Sheltron's issues with how they designed tank damage to operate - that is, they make block affect dots and the like. I can't imagine they aren't going to be doing that, or otherwise boosting Sheltron's personal effects such that PLD is no longer taking a substantially larger amount of damage than other tanks.

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I'm sorry if you don't think Clemency is useful then I don't just agree with you, It's not meant to be a common use ability in optimal situations, it's meant to be a backup tool for Paladin, besides if you think it's useless in a lot of situations theirs a lot of abilities that could be changed (without removing anything other then shield bash) Instead to make space for the ability.

removing it Making it "cost gauge" makes no sense considering could be just I don't know add that same ability to OGCD heal, instead of removing clemency in it's current form you could easily remove something like Shield bash, or make req turn into confit (so many other ways) to make space without removing clemency but adding in another skill. That's a better compromise as PLD can both have strong OGCD healing (for a tank) and current clemency for a consistent way to heal/save allies even if it's "not optimal"

Clemency isn't meant to be a tanking CD replacement, it's meant to be a niche backup tool and that's fine it's actually a really useful ability in progression and yes it's like complaining about why red mage vercure isn't a amazing ability, it's really not meant to be a optiomal ability, theirs also Other content then raiding content such as Solo content where yes clemency is beyond useful.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'm sorry if you don't think Clemency is useful then I don't just agree with you, It's not meant to be a common use ability in optimal situations, it's meant to be a backup tool for Paladin, besides if you think it's useless in a lot of situations theirs a lot of abilities that could be changed (without removing anything other then shield bash) Instead to make space for the ability.

removing it Making it "cost gauge" makes no sense considering could be just I don't know add that same ability to OGCD heal, instead of removing clemency in it's current form you could easily remove something like Shield bash, or make req turn into confit (so many other ways) to make space without removing clemency but adding in another skill. That's a better compromise as PLD can both have strong OGCD healing (for a tank) and current clemency for a consistent way to heal/save allies even if it's "not optimal"

Clemency isn't meant to be a tanking CD replacement, it's meant to be a niche backup tool and that's fine it's actually a really useful ability in progression and yes it's like complaining about why red mage vercure isn't a amazing ability, it's really not meant to be a optiomal ability, theirs also Other content then raiding content such as Solo content where yes clemency is beyond useful.

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And I just don't agree with you. Clemancy is most definitely not useful until the situation is so dire that when it is useful, it's only "okay." I'd much rather it be useful 100% of the time than maybe 1% of the time.

And I don't think its solo/other content uses should outweigh its use in relevant content. Relevant content must always come first. Clemancy's current iteration fails to fulfill the class fantasy and job identity of PLD. Intervention's EW upgrade helped a lot in this regard, now do the same for Clemancy.

I agree Shield Bash (and Cover) needs to be addressed too, but Clemancy is a far higher priority.

And yes I complain about Vercure too, but Vercure is much less bad than Clemancy.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

And I just don't agree with you. Clemancy is most definitely not useful until the situation is so dire that when it is useful, it's only "okay." I'd much rather it be useful 100% of the time than maybe 1% of the time.

And I don't think its solo/other content uses should outweigh its use in relevant content. Relevant content must always come first. Clemancy's current iteration fails to fulfill the class fantasy and job identity of PLD. Intervention's EW upgrade helped a lot in this regard, now do the same for Clemancy.

I agree Shield Bash (and Cover) needs to be addressed too, but Clemancy is a far higher priority.

And yes I complain about Vercure too, but Vercure is much less bad than Clemancy.

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Issue is you say solo/other content should outweigh the other relevant content, but why should raids determine a ability that doesn't/shouldn't negatively effect PLD in any way? even if you never changed clemency it doesn't harm PLD to have it all of a sudden, unless they tax it? (which I don't think they do, they more so tax cover/passage defensively)

Not everyplayer is going to be a hardcore raider and having a nice niche ability that allows PLD to save runs in casual content, allows them to solo and even importantly Help with prog (which anyone denying that prog isn't important is just wrong).

I just don't see your issue with clemency it's a free ability that is useful in Progression and raiding content, it doesn't matter if it's rare or not. I agree that PLD should have a direct OGCD Heal option but removing clemency because it isn't useful in the content you like? no thanks

Clemency gives class identity for me at least, powerful tank with a solo heal or emergency option, what would be good is paladin Also getting a OGCD heal

Because I want to use Clemancy in current ex trials and savage raids, I want to use it in expert roulettes and trial roulettes and also older synced content. Using it only sometimes in PotD or HoH or Bozja is underwhelming at best, or only using it as emergencies during failed runs just doesn't out weigh when I could be using it more often instead. Having both current Clemancy and an OGCD heal probably won't ever happen, and even if it did, they'd only add it at a super late level which isn't ideal. I want it specifically to be Clemancy because Clemancy is unlocked in early HW, therefore I could use this OGCD heal earlier than only in the next expansion going forward.