3% HP nerf, what a giant slap in the dev's face

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The machinist brings consistency. This isn't something you see on the graph, but believe it or not, most PF groups dont' actually take full advantage of dancer and Bard, which means their contributions lag behind a Machinst who doesn't depend on others to pull its weight. Said it yourself - PF is not likely to have ideal circumstances. The places where damage downs or deaths are most likely to happen are the big mechanics they're putting right before burst windows. A "Good" dancer or bard needs their party, a "Good" machinist doesn't, with the caveat that the best parties don't need or want them back.

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It's the same thing for everyone, look at the ninja, a good chunk of his RDPS is provided by his trick attack yet do you see the job doing more than the SAM just because when people are bad at the game they can't use his potential?
When you play content where DPS matters, you're surrounded by people who know their job and if not, the party falls apart (hi party finder).
Consistency can't be an argument to explain why he's behind. You need to compare them under good circumstances, and under good circumstances, he's way behind considering that he's one of the job in the game with the worst mobility, and literally zero utility except a role action disguised as an ability.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

I take it this doesn't include every single character/account, active or otherwise, just ones that are registered on that site.

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It takes all characters visible from the Lodestone.
Except the recently created one.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The machinist brings consistency.

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I swear if I hear the "MCH brings consistency" argument one more time...
Consistency is everyone's job.

If you don't use your buffs or sync with them properly it's your fault.
Jobs naturally synchronize raidbuff, even some encounter forces you to delay raidbuff to then have them realigned.
If your burst or your raidbuffs are not synchronized with the group, it means you screwed something.

This is the exact same argument "but melee uptime" when bosses have giant hitbox.

Plus, what kind of logic is that?
"Because pugs can't fully exploit my buffs, you should be penalized!"

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Originally Posted by Kachou_

Partially agree. However mostly disagree. Firstly, you are contradicting yourself. DNC and BRD is what brings more party support. Not MCH. Secondly, DNC and BRD consistently does way more damage than MCH at all percentiles. A DNC with a sam as dance partner is automatically best consistently Phys range this tier. The machinist bring zero consistency because anyone with same skill level playing anything else does way more damage and bring more party support.

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I didn't say Machinist brought more support, but I do see why it seems like I'm saying that. I'll clarify further. Warrior as a tank compared to Dark Knight as a tank contributes to more consistent party victories through its supporting kit, and this will become much more apparent the older the tier becomes, because the Enrage even accounting pre-nerf matters less for every week that passes. The Dark Knight's primary advantage is that it can dump absurd potencies into the party buff window, and that living dead is no longer trash, so the totality of its defensive kit handles the bleed busters quite well. However, all the tanks do good enough there, and after the damage adjustments (Because damage advantages never last, you can trust the tanks to pull each other up or down on that alone), they sit more or less equal in that regard. Except as the relevance of the Enrage shrinks, the problem of getting there still remains, especially for PF, so classes that have toolkits that aid in recovery or can independently shine have more value to them.

"Way more damage" is an exaggeration. A glance shows that at "All percentiles" you're talking a discrepancy of about 200 RDPS, but that wasn't what I meant for consistency.

Machinist will, with the only exception being crit variance, give you the same results every single time, regardless of the party composition. You will get the same potency out every time. This is not the case for dancer or bard, though their personal potency swings are small, but their full contribution requires quite literally everyone else in the party to never make a mistake. that's a lot of d20s to be rolling. Machinist only requires that the gun toter themselves not make the mistake, ergo, it's more consistent.

And just so we curb this, I am not saying everything is currently fine. I just don't think it's the worst we've ever had.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

"Because pugs can't fully exploit my buffs, you should be penalized!"

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"The pugs can't fully exploit my buffs, so I'm the one being penalized. My results are not consistent with my effort because they depend on someone else."

In any party, you will see more consistent results from the Machinist. The only thing that changes for them is crit variance. This is a period, end of story, cannot be argued fact.

That doesn't mean I'm saying they're fine.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I didn't say Machinist brought more support, but I do see why it seems like I'm saying that. I'll clarify further. Warrior as a tank compared to Dark Knight as a tank contributes to more consistent party victories through its supporting kit, and this will become much more apparent the older the tier becomes, because the Enrage even accounting pre-nerf matters less for every week that passes. The Dark Knight's primary advantage is that it can dump absurd potencies into the party buff window, and that living dead is no longer trash, so the totality of its defensive kit handles the bleed busters quite well. However, all the tanks do good enough there, and after the damage adjustments (Because damage advantages never last, you can trust the tanks to pull each other up or down on that alone), they sit more or less equal in that regard. Except as the relevance of the Enrage shrinks, the problem of getting there still remains, especially for PF, so classes that have toolkits that aid in recovery or can independently shine have more value to them.

"Way more damage" is an exaggeration. A glance shows that at "All percentiles" you're talking a discrepancy of about 200 RDPS, but that wasn't what I meant for consistency.

Machinist will, with the only exception being crit variance, give you the same results every single time, regardless of the party composition. You will get the same potency out every time. This is not the case for dancer or bard, though their personal potency swings are small, but their full contribution requires quite literally everyone else in the party to never make a mistake. that's a lot of d20s to be rolling. Machinist only requires that the gun toter themselves not make the mistake, ergo, it's more consistent.

And just so we curb this, I am not saying everything is currently fine. I just don't think it's the worst we've ever had.

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I know you didn't say MCH brought more support. I am just saying your second point contradicts your first point that MCH brings more consistency. Now you are saying damage does not matter but MCH's damage is more consistent, I mean... OK?

As for the supporting kit. My point is that I do not agree that in savage content WAR brings more supporting kits than any other tank. You can say that for PLD if we are still in SHB. Now everyone gets their own version of Intervention. The trend in this tier(and in Endwalker as a whole) is called BLEEDING AOE. For bleeding aoe, group shielding is irrefutably worse than group mit. So PLD and WAR's Divine Veil and Shake It Off are simply worse than Dark Missionary and HoL. The only thing WAR shines at is its short CD invuln. But we have bleeding TB now lol. I would even argue WAR actually brings the least amount of supporting kit in this tier due to the game design.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I didn't say Machinist brought more support, but I do see why it seems like I'm saying that. I'll clarify further. Warrior as a tank compared to Dark Knight as a tank contributes to more consistent party victories through its supporting kit, and this will become much more apparent the older the tier becomes, because the Enrage even accounting pre-nerf matters less for every week that passes. The Dark Knight's primary advantage is that it can dump absurd potencies into the party buff window, and that living dead is no longer trash, so the totality of its defensive kit handles the bleed busters quite well. However, all the tanks do good enough there, and after the damage adjustments (Because damage advantages never last, you can trust the tanks to pull each other up or down on that alone), they sit more or less equal in that regard. Except as the relevance of the Enrage shrinks, the problem of getting there still remains, especially for PF, so classes that have toolkits that aid in recovery or can independently shine have more value to them.

"Way more damage" is an exaggeration. A glance shows that at "All percentiles" you're talking a discrepancy of about 200 RDPS, but that wasn't what I meant for consistency.

Machinist will, with the only exception being crit variance, give you the same results every single time, regardless of the party composition. You will get the same potency out every time. This is not the case for dancer or bard, though their personal potency swings are small, but their full contribution requires quite literally everyone else in the party to never make a mistake. that's a lot of d20s to be rolling. Machinist only requires that the gun toter themselves not make the mistake, ergo, it's more consistent.

And just so we curb this, I am not saying everything is currently fine. I just don't think it's the worst we've ever had.



"The pugs can't fully exploit my buffs, so I'm the one being penalized. My results are not consistent with my effort because they depend on someone else."

In any party, you will see more consistent results from the Machinist. The only thing that changes for them is crit variance. This is a period, end of story, cannot be argued fact.

That doesn't mean I'm saying they're fine.

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Sure, Consistently lowest damage.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Ah, no. Just the ones from The Lodestone. You know, that registry of every single character in FINAL FANTASY XIV ran by SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD.

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Interesting. Didn't even know The Lodestone tracked percentages. Figured those numbers were from lalachievements (Amaro is listed at ~31% there). But wouldn't that mean virtually every single person to ever get that mount has registered there as well? It definitely doesn't feel like 3 out of 10 characters have leveled every combat job to 80 either. Most alts couldn't be bothered to do that at least.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Interesting. Didn't even know The Lodestone tracked percentages. Figured those numbers were from lalachievements (Amaro is listed at ~31% there). But wouldn't that mean virtually every single person to ever get that mount has registered there as well? It definitely doesn't feel like 3 out of 10 characters have leveled every combat job to 80 either. Most alts couldn't be bothered to do that at least.

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It doesn't. Someone just have their own database (lalachievement) listing achievements, mounts and so on for each characters.
They just then provide statistics.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"The pugs can't fully exploit my buffs, so I'm the one being penalized. My results are not consistent with my effort because they depend on someone else."

In any party, you will see more consistent results from the Machinist. The only thing that changes for them is crit variance. This is a period, end of story, cannot be argued fact.

That doesn't mean I'm saying they're fine.

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Wrong, if someone doesn't fully exploit your buff, the game doesn't punish you.
It's FFLogs that punishes you.

You offer a buff, if someone else doesn't exploit your buff, it doesn't impact you at all.

Sure you will see more consistent results from the Machinist. But so can do SAM, DRG, NIN, BLM and SMN, jobs that don't heavily relies on proc.
I mentionned earlier that aDPS is a good metric to understand how well you executed your rotation. This is exactly a case where you shouldn't look at rDPS but aDPS.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Wrong, if someone doesn't fully exploit your buff, the game doesn't punish you.
It's FFLogs that punishes you.

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I tossed you the basketball and you dropped it. We're on the same team. We don't get a point.

I am punished for your performance.

I don't need the scoreboard to tell me that, because I know that had I shot it myself, then the only person to blame for how it went would be me.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

>Niche content

>Half the player base does it

Pick one. Can't have both

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Yes you can have both. the question is when does half the player base do it.

week 1 soon as the content is new..?

week 8 or 9 when they have a full set of tome gear? (thus reducing the difficulty greatly.)

week 26 (or there abouts) when the new tier drops.?.. (with even more power creep)

this early into a patch cycle it probably still is very niche content...
2 or 3 months maybe when players are geared up in tome gears participation levels likely increase..

time is very much a factor especially in a game like this one where content dies so quickly.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"The pugs can't fully exploit my buffs, so I'm the one being penalized. My results are not consistent with my effort because they depend on someone else."

In any party, you will see more consistent results from the Machinist. The only thing that changes for them is crit variance. This is a period, end of story, cannot be argued fact.

That doesn't mean I'm saying they're fine.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I tossed you the basketball and you dropped it. We're on the same team. We don't get a point.

I am punished for your performance.

I don't need the scoreboard to tell me that, because I know that had I shot it myself, then the only person to blame for how it went would be me.

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It is really funny seeing someone saying MCH have more consistent result. No, on the contrary, it is famous for being the least consistent. Do you remember why they deleted Kaiten and gave auto crit to SAM in the first place? Because having huge damage in one GCD made Luck a more significant factor in your damage and made your DPS super inconsistent. Who also has this problem? MCH!!!(of course also some other jobs because devs like big damage in Endwalker) SAM also had this problem before 6.2 but 6.2 fixed it. They never did anything similar to other jobs tho. The ninja in my static often says, jokingly, if he did not CritDH this Hyosho Ranryu we should wipe because his damage will be shit.

I know it is kind of illegal to say it here. But my main account in Asura is an active parser with 98-100 parse on all 3 Phys range jobs, on all 4 bosses' last tier as well as back in E5-E12. And I have to say if you think MCH has the most consistent damage. It means you don't understand the numbers game at all. MCH definitely has the lowest consistency in all physrange.
As a parser, my experience is that it is easier to optimize BRD and DNC because you only need to plan your rotation better. But for MCH it is more like praying all your crit goes to drill and air anchor and you may get a 99 parse with luck. There is a famous joke that even if you do perfect rotation as a MCH. It is still possible for you to get an 80 percentile parse only due to the Crit. And someone with shitty rotation and terrible electricity usage can get a 99 parse if he can Crit some Drills. My experience progging P8S this tier with MCH is simply praying to Jesus that my Drill crits. I ultimately switched to DNC and cleared with ease. It is really funny seeing someone saying MCH have more consistent result. No, on the contrary, it is famous for being the least consistent.

Making matters worse, devs decided to add DOUBLE DAMAGE buff to this tier. So the damage is even more luck based.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...46/unknown.png

Also quote: This is a period, end of story. LMAO