Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

But speaking of a lack of evidence, Hermes is never accredited with Zodiark's construction. Never. Not one time. If he was at all vital to Zodiark's innerworkings, that is something that needs a thorough pointing out, because from where I'm sitting, he has no further involvement than any other Convocation member. A primal that is using an aether shield does not need a dynamis expert. All of his 'vital' knowledge of the root cause of the Final Days only remains vital because Venat chooses to keep under wraps that she learned basically everything valuable from him secondhand already. To be honest though, this is all from the 'rushing you out of Elpis' epilogue scene that I already have several very strong issues with.

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The Watcher specifically states the first time you meet him that Hermes was the one who discovered the pattern of places where the Aether Currents were weakest and where the "Dynamis" corruption appeared first. We directly know this attributes to the "solution" of Zodiark, both Venat confirms that (before we leave Elpis) and the Watcher alludes to it just enough which means his knowledge on Dynamis is instrumental on countering Meteion first Final Days to whatever degree possible. While it's undetermined how much beyond any other convocation member Hermes participated in the construct, I think the convocation members would have been the most informed people in the solution (Zodiark). That doesn't need to be explicitly stated, as we already know they are essentially the highest members of Amaurotine society.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

While it's undetermined how much beyond any other convocation member Hermes participated in the construct, I think the convocation members would have been the most informed people in the solution (Zodiark). That doesn't need to be explicitly stated, as we already know they are essentially the highest members of Amaurotine society.

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And there's the crux of the issue. It's undetermined, like so many other things in this plot. What you've given me doesn't answer the actual dilemma in what I was saying. Why is Hermes still vital, at a point where Venat already knows the root cause is in the aether currents, that Meteion is the problem, and that dynamis is a major factor in the Final Days? Are you trying to tell me he is the only person alive who can point to these aether currents? When the entirety of the Convocation is made aware of the problem by someone else, he will still be the only person in the entire world capable of solving this issue?

Even if your answer to this is yes, I would take great issue with the plot's decision to make it so.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, demanding the hard evidence for any kind of alternative to the Sundering, and then base the entirety of your previous post decrying their society as "there probably was agony and strife around, we just didn't see it!" Obviously their society was not perfect, they have struggles in their lives, but I say more power to them then, it humanizes them more and we've just recently learned that being actually perfect is bad. Come on, even Hermes, the #1 Ancient hater says they go out of their way to make sure their creations do not suffer unduly. It's just that wasn't enough for him, because he knew they sensed their impending demise. I get you're searching for ammo where there is largely none to suit your narrative, but there has to be something better to use than that.

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You've misunderstood what I was pointing out.

I was not saying 'there probably was homelessness and starvation that we didn't see then'. I was saying that our windows into Ancient life are all areas of extreme privilege where homelessness and starvation wouldn't have been present anyway, so we can't take absence of evidence to be evidence of absence on this. However, so far the existence (or lack thereof) of these problems has never been a relevant part of the story of the Ancients, so until it comes up (which at this point could only appear in Pandaemonium or Tales short stories), the notion doesn't really impact either way.

However, it is a CENTRAL element of the story of the Ancients that Venat had no other options for the goal of 'stop the End of Days and also constant Zodiark summonings'. It is stated from several angles--from her noting that her options are limited, to her allies mentioning they've exhausted their other avenues, to even Emet-Selch freed from duty, tempering and memory loss saying that her plan got them further than any other could have. It is an open and subjective question if she was morally right to do it, and that's a question that we have now been directly asked, so this was clearly the intention of the story.

If Venat was not taking the best option, then the story no longer functions as intended. It is no longer people making different but valid and internally justifiable moral decisions, and frankly, I don't even know what the story IS anymore if not that. So you can't throw 'she had better options' without significant proof that said better options existed, not just to overcome the story's own evidence and testimonies, but also to provide an alternative definition for what this story is.

If you don't have that evidence, then any alternatives you draw up are fanfiction. I can appreciate some good fanfiction, but we should recognize it for what it is.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

And there's the crux of the issue. It's undetermined, like so many other things in this plot. What you've given me doesn't answer the actual dilemma in what I was saying. Why is Hermes still vital, at a point where Venat already knows the root cause is in the aether currents, that Meteion is the problem, and that dynamis is a major factor in the Final Days? Are you trying to tell me he is the only person alive who can point to these aether currents? When the entirety of the Convocation is made aware of the problem by someone else, he will still be the only person in the entire world capable of solving this issue?

Even if your answer to this is yes, I would take great issue with the plot's decision to make it so.

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I don't think it does. Just because you know what the cause is, how would Venat prove that to the rest of the society when she literally doesn't understand Dynamis (none of them really did). Hermes's brain as the principal scholar of Dynamis is automatically vetted as the most important person in the room in regards to the solution. Maybe not the only person who could notice aether current fluctuations, but the only person who can make the connection and PROVE it to his compatriots, which seems very meticulous on facts.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

And there's the crux of the issue. It's undetermined, like so many other things in this plot. What you've given me doesn't answer the actual dilemma in what I was saying. Why is Hermes still vital, at a point where Venat already knows the root cause is in the aether currents, that Meteion is the problem, and that dynamis is a major factor in the Final Days? Are you trying to tell me he is the only person alive who can point to these aether currents? When the entirety of the Convocation is made aware of the problem by someone else, he will still be the only person in the entire world capable of solving this issue?

Even if your answer to this is yes, I would take great issue with the plot's decision to make it so.

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I'll tell you this one, because we actually have a decent idea of what exactly Fandaniel was doing even if it wasn't directly stated, but Havenchild's mostly hit it: The role of Fandaniel is the pursuit and understanding of 'existing phenomena'. We're talking magnetic fields, aether currents, and--wouldn't you know it--dynamis. It's a good thing Hermes was already fairly knowledgeable in this, because once a dynamis-related event came up, it's on the guy in the seat of Fandaniel to explain to everyone else what the hell they're even looking at, and what to do with it. There's a note in Ktisis describing the previous Fandaniel's knowledge of magnetic fields being integral to inventing migratory birds, for example.

If Hermes is not there then EVERYBODY DIES, because he's the one who figures out what they're dealing with and how to stop it. Which is both a matter of luck that he's present for it, and also a matter of duty; remember that the Fandaniel seat was vacant at the time. It is a Fandaniel's job to figure this out, but it would've been a new Fandaniel no matter who it was, someone who probably wasn't completely on top of their duties. Hermes was exactly the 'new Fandaniel' needed at the time, because he was already familiar enough with dynamis to know what he was looking at.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

If Venat was not taking the best option, then the story no longer functions as intended.

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Yes, you're using things completely contrary to the Ancient's intended presentation and using it as fodder for your argument, that is not lost of me. If you want to talk about things no longer working from certain points of view, I would ask you to take a look at the moral dilemma of 5.0, where traditional humanity is confronted with the concept of a society that wasn't prone to countless bouts of violence and death, and for just a single moment, actually being introspective as to faults of themselves as a people. When you try to claim that the Ancients had all of these vices anyway tucked away someplace else without any evidence, and Emet is just a sorry old genocidal boomer who just wants his flavor of problems back, I'm of the belief that the story no longer functions as intended.

You see? It doesn't matter. I don't think the story functions at all, so handwaving every contradiction with writer intention solves nothing. There are plenty of stories that carry moral weights like this and don't have nearly as much controversy. The people who say these things know very well it is not what the story 'wants' you to think, and while there will always be outliers, it is the writers' job to convey with enough certainty that the destruction of a people and their way of life was the only option. What this quest is telling us, in a way that I can finally respect, is that there was no 'best option.' She was acting according to her own morals, and even though it ultimately worked out in success for the Sundered, it came at a cost great enough for you, the player, to disagree that it was justified. SHE, in her own mind, had no other options, that does not mean that no other options existed. Venat is not an arbiter of objectivity and correctness, she is just another person, and we are finally allowed to say as such. I'm sorry if the story falls apart for you, for that to be the case, but welcome to our world.

Elidibus tells the WoL their knowledge of the Final Days is consistent with their own. Add to this Hermes' detailed explanation in Elpis and that's more than enough to set the Convocation on their course. There's nothing to suggest he was instrumental in any way besides making the connection where celestial currents were weak, something we already knew and could share.

As for Venat, I'm just going to quote Lurina here: "The more controversial a plot element, the tighter the plot has to be to get people to accept it in good faith, and 'cultural genocide was the right call to save the world' is about as close to maximum controversy as you can get."

The writers simply didn't accomplish this. Matter of fact, as mentioned, they've stated repeatedly that Venat acted on her beliefs. She was afraid that the Ancients would always be their own undoing and that they couldn't defeat Meteion without being able to interact with dynamis. She had no proof of either.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'm just going to quote Lurina here: "The more controversial a plot element, the tighter the plot has to be to get people to accept it in good faith, and 'cultural genocide was the right call to save the world' is about as close to maximum controversy as you can get."

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Sorry, wait, what? Why would you ever have an excuse to deliberately interpret elements of the plot in bad faith? That doesn't make the least bit of sense.

None of the other convocation members were noted to have as good of a sight for the Celestial as any Fandaniel. So even if someone could see what was going on with the different currents it doesn't mean they would have spotted it as quickly or been able to explain things as through as Hermes would have been able to. Then you throw in Dynamis if that was even thrown into the equation and he becomes even more important as he's probably the most studied of the convocation. Into a thing the rest most likely didn't know anything about or if they did I doubt they'd have a better grasp on it than him.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

If Venat was not taking the best option, then the story no longer functions as intended. It is no longer people making different but valid and internally justifiable moral decisions, and frankly, I don't even know what the story IS anymore if not that. So you can't throw 'she had better options' without significant proof that said better options existed, not just to overcome the story's own evidence and testimonies, but also to provide an alternative definition for what this story is.

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What an absolutely bizarre thing to say. The game has never hypothesized that Venat's way was the only/best way, only that she thought it was the best way, in the same way that Emet-Selch thought that only the Ancients had the temperament and fortitude to take stewardship over the star. (Hint: both of them were wrong.) It's like you're saying the only math equation that comes out to the answer "4" is "8/2=", when Emet-Selch's equation might be "2+2=", etc, etc.

When people are upset at Venat's actions, they're upset that there is no indication that she tried to explore other avenues. For example, we have proof both in the game and out of it that we're not the first person Emet-Selch has attempted to trust and find another way with. Likewise, even Hermes was attempting to mitigate his anguish over dispersing creations with guidelines and tests to see if their flaws were really immutable.

The kindest thing this set of quests did was clarify whether or not Venat was misleading her followers. It seems very likely at this point she wasn't. (I really have to laugh, though. Sundering is so "imprecise and difficult" it can leave holes for specific people to escape and create simulations of real people that only have the memories Venat approves of?)

It seems to me your objection is less, "the story would make no sense" and more "Venat would be no better or worse than Hermes and Emet-Selch," but that's already clear from these side quests. The reason her plan worked wasn't because it was a good plan or the best plan, it was because after she set the process in motion, countless people other than her made it work. It was a miracle that she had very little direct hand in.