The difficulty curve in the game has... problems...

I tried to PF p2s his afternoon and got a party together - listed it as practice with no stipulations, at 590 ilvl. Took almost an hour to fill, after 4 wipes everyone left with 72minutes still left on the instance timer. We made it to Kampeos Harma on the last pull, and I just stood there in an empty instance wondering wtf happened. It was super helpful and informative and I look forward to doing it again. It did not feel remotely dispiriting or like a waste of 90 minutes of time just to have to start over from square-one, nope nope.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

I tried to PF p2s his afternoon and got a party together - listed it as practice with no stipulations, at 590 ilvl. Took almost an hour to fill, after 4 wipes everyone left with 72minutes still left on the instance timer. We made it to Kampeos Harma on the last pull, and I just stood there in an empty instance wondering wtf happened. It was super helpful and informative and I look forward to doing it again. It did not feel remotely dispiriting or like a waste of 90 minutes of time just to have to start over from square-one, nope nope.

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Maybe it is not for you. You are also attempting to do this when most people are no longer messing with savage content.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Maybe it is not for you. You are also attempting to do this when most people are no longer messing with savage content.

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According to everyone in this thread anyone can do it at any time, at any gear level, without addons, without experience, exclusively through the PF and saying otherwise makes you wrong and/or a negative Nancy and/or a quitter, etc...

You just have to be willing to eat pavement ad infinitum and apparently put 3x as much time into getting a party together than you spend actually progressing. Having no deaths on the first Channeling Flow after only 3 pulls, and seeing Kampeos Harma after only 4 pulls seemed like progress to me... I was wrong apparently.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The thing is that they intended EX fights to be the bridge between normal and savage, but as I stated before they raised the skill floor and now EX is just sort of it's own thing floating out there with unreal. Also the way they handle end game as a whole with the savage tier is done poorly as it has no tiers or scaling to accommodate the breadth of different play schedules and times people have who engage in it. The content shouldn't take someone more than two months to clear but unfortunately it ends up doing just that since many people can't dedicate a four to five night a week raid schedule with the same folks, and bless those that do because without them the vast majority of people doing savage likely couldn't even complete the content.

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One thing I find crazy in this game is the sheer amount of time people will dedicate to EX or Savage on a per week basis. This tier, the static I was in did 3-4 hours a night x two nights a week, and that was plenty. Four or five nights a week makes some sense for Ultimate, but for anything less it just sounds ridiculous, barring world first people of course.

Edit: And that's just for savage. EX usually just takes a single evening.

i ran p1s when it released with my fc and for a month straight i didn't get a single piece of gear. largely in part to our static having multiple people who would run it before the rest of us because they wanted to prog faster. every week it would be 1 chest runs. progging feels really, REALLY bad when u continue to see everyone else getting kitted out with BiS. the static folded before we even made it to p2s. i've got tomes, but tomes don't really help when they take 2 months to get 1 item

The only difficulty curve problem this game has is that nothing in the entirety of the MSQ prepares you for what you'll see in Ex or Savage. It's a big spike. Low clear rates have nothing to do with the fights being dependent on addons, but that to do them you have to practice by doing.

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Originally Posted by game_enjoyer

i ran p1s when it released with my fc and for a month straight i didn't get a single piece of gear. largely in part to our static having multiple people who would run it before the rest of us because they wanted to prog faster. every week it would be 1 chest runs. progging feels really, REALLY bad when u continue to see everyone else getting kitted out with BiS. the static folded before we even made it to p2s. i've got tomes, but tomes don't really help when they take 2 months to get 1 item

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Honestly that's just a bad static. I would've jumped ship the moment one chest clears became the norm.

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Originally Posted by game_enjoyer

i ran p1s when it released with my fc and for a month straight i didn't get a single piece of gear. largely in part to our static having multiple people who would run it before the rest of us because they wanted to prog faster.

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See, this crosses a line. I'm fine with people trying to prog ahead of the static -- I actually do this, because as the shot-caller I want practice on mechanics we're not reliably seeing yet, so that I can know them well enough to call them.

But when my static still needed gear from P2S, even if we were progging P3S, I would not go practice P3S before our first raid night of the week; once we'd cleared P2S as a group, progging P3S was fine... but if we were close to a clear -- if we were working on the last mechanic or enrage -- I would hold off on that until after our last raid of the week. Similarly, when we were progging P4S but some people still needed gear from P3S, I would wait until we'd gotten P3S down for the week before practicing P4S in PF.

Screwing your static out of a chest because you're impatient is just not being a good team player.

Now, if you discuss it with your static, that's different. I really wanted to unlock DSR in order to try it with some friends who aren't in my static. My static, as a group, was working on the phase 1 enrage of P4S, while I'd been at Curtain Call in PF.

I discussed with my static, and they decided the chances of a static clear of P4S this week were very low, and so when my FC leader's static needed a sub healer on Tuesday, I stepped in (and thus got my P4S clear and DSR unlock).

Yes, it meant we wouldn't have had 2 chests if we had blasted through the rest of P4S as a static, but 1) we did not do so, and 2) I'd discussed it with the static ahead of time and made certain everyone was okay with it. And going forward, I'll do reclears of P4S after we've finished as a static for the week, if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

According to everyone in this thread anyone can do it at any time, at any gear level, without addons, without experience, exclusively through the PF and saying otherwise makes you wrong and/or a negative Nancy and/or a quitter, etc...

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No, what we've been speaking against is the idea that savage is somehow this impossible goal if you didn't clear it right away.

In fact, I've pointed out repeatedly that gear makes a difference, when folks said that gear progression through a tier made no difference. The fights are possible in the base required gear; they are, however, easier to do in better gear, since you'll have better DPS (and thus better chances to still clear even with deaths or damage downs).

PF can be frustrating! It is also entirely possible to clear a tier in PF.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

I tried to PF p2s his afternoon and got a party together - listed it as practice with no stipulations, at 590 ilvl. Took almost an hour to fill, after 4 wipes everyone left with 72minutes still left on the instance timer. We made it to Kampeos Harma on the last pull, and I just stood there in an empty instance wondering wtf happened. It was super helpful and informative and I look forward to doing it again. It did not feel remotely dispiriting or like a waste of 90 minutes of time just to have to start over from square-one, nope nope.

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Don't sell yourself short; that is progress!

Yeah, it's always unfortunate when someone leaves the instance -- and of course, as soon as one person does, everyone else has to -- so frequently it only takes one malcontent or impatient person to nuke a PF group.

But don't view it as starting over from square one. You have now had experience with all the mechanics leading up to Kampeos Harma, which means the next party you create or join can be a cleanup party for that mechanic. And then you'll get that much further in the fight, and find a new mechanic to work on for the next time.

Savage is not a "do the whole fight in one learning session" type of experience.

You do note you made the party "with no stipulations"; one bit of advice I'll offer is that it is good to set expectations. When I run learning parties, I tend to set a specific mechanic -- usually based on where whoever asked me to run one is in the fight.

For instance, today's P3S party I ran for some folks that just finished up was stated as "Adds cleanup and prog"; we didn't really get to prog beyond adds, but folks who joined to get practice were doing the mechanics up to adds much more cleanly -- and getting nearly through adds more consistently -- by the end of the party than at the beginning. And some folks were later in the fight, but since they knew what they were getting into from the party description, those who were further along (or had cleared) were either joining to help those who were at that point, or to practice mechanics they had done but wanted to practice to be smoother at executing.

When we disbanded, it wasn't because anyone left in a huff, but because someone had stated ahead-of-time "Just as a note, I have to go in half an hour to do some stuff."

It helps to set expectations; if someone sees a "practice" and thinks it means 'practice the whole fight', they may be more likely to leave in a huff if it proves to be working on a specific earlier mechanic. And yeah, if a party says it's for a specific mechanic and people never make it there, it can get frustrating and someone might leave; that's part of the PF experience.

If you prefer a more consistent group than the PF grab-bag, I will once again recommend looking on /r/FFXIVRECRUITMENT or somewhere similar for a static. There are still some statics forming even now, because there are people only just getting to endgame and still wanting to do savage.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

*snip*

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It just feels like an enormous amount of effort to put in for 18min of progress. That's it, 4 pulls, 18min of playing the raid, I looked at the instance timer in disbelief when everyone just ~poofed~ without a word. And now all I can really look forward to is another however long to form/join a party with the requisite progress just to have it implode again in less than 20 minutes. It's not exactly like the PF is overflowing with p2s prog groups.

I'm not saying I wont. I'm saying g** damn that is really disheartening... Like the end point after that doesn't feel any closer.

I forced myself to join another prog at Harma with zero hope of getting any farther. Progged for about an hour before someone had to leave. I managed not to wipe us and get the mechanic right after like 5 tries on Harma. Actually cleared Overflow and the second Overflow easier than Harma. Saw enrage once near the end (~25%) before we disbanded. I died, like a lot, a lot more than everyone else it seemed like, and still am clearly the weakest link.

But, it may be, minutely possible that I can eventually clear it. Enrage once at 25% is a long a** way from a clear, but it might not be impossible. It's still really f'ing hard though and the game does absolutely nothing to prepare you for it. And I'd be willing to put a large wager that I just lucked into a unicorn group that felt sorry enough not to kick me bringing paper bag tier DPS.

I'll keep trying I guess. I will withold my judgement on the feasibility until I actually get a clear though. I think there is an above even chance I end up in the old folks home (ie - the perpetual "seen enrage a bunch" groups, but never get a clear).