What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

TBH I think that was one of the problems I didn't like with the Elpis thing.

We know from Graha Tia that you can time travel to an alternate timeline past. His future we are dead so the time loop didn't happen yet everything played out the same. They could of just had us going back causing a split so that any changes (Emet and co finding out the cause then doing something about it) would not of changed our future. It would of let them let us get exposition while just having the alternate timeline be a Graha situation where we saved that periods ancients regardless of it not effecting our own present.

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Originally Posted by truemagus

TBH I think that was one of the problems I didn't like with the Elpis thing.

We know from Graha Tia that you can time travel to an alternate timeline past. His future we are dead so the time loop didn't happen yet everything played out the same. They could of just had us going back causing a split so that any changes (Emet and co finding out the cause then doing something about it) would not of changed our future. It would of let them let us get exposition while just having the alternate timeline be a Graha situation where we saved that periods ancients regardless of it not effecting our own present.

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You're right, it is the time aspect that ultimately causes the issues a lot of people had with the story, and in particular, the requirement to maintain it. Just a consequence of using time travel to explain the story, rather than some other method (e.g. more advanced control of the Echo's ability to peer in the past.) Of course they probably don't want to veer off into an AU with the ancient world restored (at least not yet), so they have to commit to the current timeline, but it's still frustrating and felt convoluted and forced.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

The single biggest one that comes to mind is "Voices from the past". Lets have some ghosts play soundbites of dead characters that people loved.

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For me there were just two sequences which I found sad, and that is the ancients caught in a limbo in Zodiark wandering around him, where I was glad that you could tell her Watcher that you refuse to banish them, and the other one being the fate of the Dragonstar and the despondent shades lingering there. Beyond that? There was an awful lot of attempted tear-jerking, but not much I cared about.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except we’re later told that’s not exactly what it was. Venat’s whole thing was she didn’t think the Ancients could overcome despair/suffering and defeat Meteion. She knew Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution, we’re shown this in Anamnesis. However the problem here is she didn’t even give the ancients a valid chance. She gave up on them in favor of someone she had only just met. We know they can manipulate Dynamis, we know that she could in some way get through to Emet. She just chose not to. If they had at least had her mind wiped then her actions and the sundering would make a bit more sense as at that point it would be more an act of pure desperation and unknowingness.

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Yeah, the poster here made a good discussion on why her reasons don't really stack up - without the requirement to maintain the timeline, it falls apart IMO.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

The thing is I cried during ARR, I cried during HW, SB, and ShB. EndWalker? No. Not one tear was shed. Who or what, was I supposed to cry for? The girl in the green dress who's quest was super annoying to do? Hermes who cared about soulless beasts, but suddenly went "everyone should just die."

Surprisingly, I came really close to crying for the Elephant guy carrying the baby through the forest while fighting his own fears and getting cornered by the beasts. Really close there. If only there was more moments like that and the pacing was done better.

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Hermes point was to hold mankind to the same indifference of suffering and death that it appeared to portray for the creations made. If mankind wishes to live it should do so without suffering for that is the ideal and value used to destroy these things I make.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Hermes point was to hold mankind to the same indifference of suffering and death that it appeared to portray for the creations made. If mankind wishes to live it should do so without suffering for that is the ideal and value used to destroy these things I make.

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But he's not even correct on that point. They weren't indifferent about it - we see that in sidequests in Elpis. His problem was that they applied a standard at all, i.e. permitting creations to persist only when they contributed to the betterment of the star. We see this with the lykaones, where he wishes them to live even if they were detrimental to the star's ecological balance. These are just arcane constructs in the end (even more abundantly clear with the sprites, where he discussed their impetus to exist), which might get a soul if they satisfy the star's criteria for doing so, and even then it'd just upgrade them to the equivalent of animals or monsters. Beings the sundered kill without a second thought, much as they send their own arcane constructs, like egi, to die for them. Moreover, he also had a problem with his mentor's decision to return to the star. None of what he said is going to stop us from going on hunt trains to reap souls to fuel our next relic, for example... His real beef was that existence itself ultimately entailed death. In the end, that entire line of thinking is discarded by Venat who is only concerned about answering his question for the purpose of surviving to drive back Meteion. He is little more than your typical pathological "empath" with a sadistic streak.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except we’re later told that’s not exactly what it was. Venat’s whole thing was she didn’t think the Ancients could overcome despair/suffering and defeat Meteion. She knew Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution, we’re shown this in Anamnesis. However the problem here is she didn’t even give the ancients a valid chance. She gave up on them in favor of someone she had only just met. We know they can manipulate Dynamis, we know that she could in some way get through to Emet. She just chose not to. If they had at least had her mind wiped then her actions and the sundering would make a bit more sense as at that point it would be more an act of pure desperation and unknowingness.

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She didn't know it wasn't a permanent solution, their is no way for her to know that in any other timeline than post WoL and even then she still wouldn't know because the post WoL events never unfolded, the pre WoL events did. What she acted upon was the possibility that Zodiark would fail to stop the Final Days and they would all be doomed, and in her cutscene she specifically says suffering is good to the guy begging to Zodiark to return to them what was being destroyed. And then she sundered Zodiark, and walked through a black time tunnel.
When you first get to Elpis Venat recognizes her marking you with her magicks and says something about a familiar presence, then when she meets WoL she recognizes it again and points out that its her magick in front of Hydro and Emet. She trusts the WoL because she recognizes her own power in them. Which is also why in prior expacs some Ascians refer to the WoL as Azem.
Also, not everyone can manipulate Dynamis and seems to be something rare or somewhat unique to Hermes. Dynamis was a little known thing as is explained by Hermes in regards to one of the conversations involving Meteion.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

But he's not even correct on that point. They weren't indifferent about it - we see that in sidequests in Elpis. His problem was that they applied a standard at all, i.e. permitting creations to persist only when they contributed to the betterment of the star. We see this with the lykaones, where he wishes them to live even if they were detrimental to the star's ecological balance. These are just arcane constructs in the end (even more abundantly clear with the sprites, where he discussed their impetus to exist), which might get a soul if they satisfy the star's criteria for doing so, and even then it'd just upgrade them to the equivalent of animals or monsters. Beings the sundered kill without a second thought, much as they send their own arcane constructs, like egi, to die for them. Moreover, he also had a problem with his mentor's decision to return to the star. None of what he said is going to stop us from going on hunt trains to reap souls to fuel our next relic, for example... His real beef was that existence itself ultimately entailed death. In the end, that entire line of thinking is discarded by Venat who is only concerned about answering his question for the purpose of surviving to drive back Meteion. He is little more than your typical pathological "empath" with a sadistic streak.

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Hermes doesn't need to be correct. He just needs to have a motivation for his actions. Motives that span Hermes, Amon, and Fandaniel as characters.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

She didn't know it wasn't a permanent solution, their is no way for her to know that in any other timeline than post WoL and even then she still wouldn't know because the post WoL events never unfolded, the pre WoL events did. What she acted upon was the possibility that Zodiark would fail to stop the Final Days and they would all be doomed, and in her cutscene she specifically says suffering is good to the guy begging to Zodiark to return to them what was being destroyed. And then she sundered Zodiark, and walked through a black time tunnel.
When you first get to Elpis Venat recognizes her marking you with her magicks and says something about a familiar presence, then when she meets WoL she recognizes it again and points out that its her magick in front of Hydro and Emet. She trusts the WoL because she recognizes her own power in them. Which is also why in prior expacs some Ascians refer to the WoL as Azem.
Also, not everyone can manipulate Dynamis and seems to be something rare or somewhat unique to Hermes. Dynamis was a little known thing as is explained by Hermes in regards to one of the conversations involving Meteion.

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Her and her followers literally say in Anamnesis that Zodiark isn’t a permanent solution. Sooo…unless she was lying, in which case that makes her look even more evil than she actually is lol.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Her and her followers literally say in Anamnesis that Zodiark isn’t a permanent solution. Sooo…unless she was lying, in which case that makes her look even more evil than she actually is lol.

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And when you beat genocidaelyn for her trial Yshtola says that when she sundered the source into the 14, decreasing the amount of aether they carry in their bodies, allowing them to overcome despair, to be able to face Meteion genocidaelyn responds:

"It is as you say. It was the trial I subjected mankind to that has lead to untold bloodshed and suffering. There was no justice or kindness in the tragedy I caused."
"When confronted with the Almighty Zodiark, my only recourse was to rend him and the world asunder, that his power be diminished for a time."
"And so it came to pass. Now you, my chosen, have surpassed my expectations. Surpassed me."
"I entrust the fate of the universe ... unto you."

And then proceeds to prattle on about the Mothercrystal. The later explanation in this cutscene actually mcguffins everything since it means that genocidaelyn created a time loop paradox.

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Originally Posted by Mezzoforte

Walk into a room full of people tomorrow and try to explain to them the end of the workd us gonna happen in an unknown amount of time and get them to fully cooperate with you. Tell us how well that goes l o l

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Indeed but we don't have echo that we could conveniently use to show them what had happened instead of having to explain it to them.

I wasn't a fan of the "dynamis" thing, because it wasn't foreshadowed properly as a "thing". Had they mentioned something about an "unknown force next to aether" in past expansions, this would have worked better.
That Zodiark was a Fandaniel sock puppet didn't work for me, either. There was potential there making the sundering an honest mistake born out of a misunderstanding, and Zodiark not being evil at all, and instead of freeing him being a catastrophe, he could have been the key to salvation for the planet. That would have been a much stronger plot twist.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

genocidaelyn

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Thanks, you made my day.