Fix Summoner Once and For All in 6.0 Please!

Pet job means most of your damage comes from your pet or that the pet damage contributes to at least 50% of the damage.

Egi is just a glorified DoT that makes up about 1/3 of overall damage.

I don't think pets work in XIV.

I think they need to overhaul egi's and turn them into different trances and have them summon the summon just like you do with Bahamut and Phoenix.

That delayed pet attack is awful. It's like using a macro'd skill.

Everything the OP complained about has been address since we first saw SMN appear in 2013.

-Demi address the desired appearance and size, which size did cause issue with dodge mechanics when it first came out as we knew it would. Now i wouldn't complain if they adjusted Egi size to say that of a Hume or change their appearance but don't take my pets way.

-Next we now control out pets rather than just set them to auto. The delay is funny in a way. It takes about 1.5 to 2 second from the moment you command to the moment it is executed. Casted spells are 2.5s so really it's like casting a spell that you can move around and has a slight chance of missing Unfortunately it's just the inherit design of the game and really can't get away from it. Personally I would rather control my pets like now than put them on auto like before.

I've post before on the changes to help repair the clunky design of 5.XX and hopefully they streamline all the changes to make it flow better plus add a new mechanic. I'm fine with Bahamut and Phoenix on a timer but still want a visual one and done summon that we charge up too.

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Originally Posted by Pyitoechito

What defines a pet job, anyway? Is it having to rely on delay when commanding pets to perform (especially if you happen to move)? Wonky AI that ghosts actions? Pets executing random commands on their own like in XI?

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The way it currently works, I can see pets evolve to be progammically processed as just a graphical presentation, so there doesn't have to be delays.

In my comment, I was talking about the case where pet skills replace SMN player skills, i.e. they work just like any other job's skills, except that graphically it's your pet doing the animations, so there doesn't have to be any delays. You're not ordering the pet to do something, it's you who's casting the skill, except the game's graphics shows it as your pet doing the attack. For melee, since pets aren't targetable, they can literally stick to a target even better than any player can ever hope to do, by just doing the processing server side and updating the pet position to be shown on player screens.

But of course that means a complete overhaul of the inner mechanics of the job, so it was more of a musing rather than a serious suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Pyitoechito

What defines a pet job, anyway?

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I think this is a fantastic question.

If the pet is purely aethestetic, which it sorta is except in bad ways right now, the job isn't really a pet job, it just has animations that evoke an external character. This isn't a terrible direction, after all in most FF games summoners AREN'T a pet job, they are casting insane super-spells with mega-flashy animations. Making your OGCDs or procs visually reference primals more often does make a lot of sense for fixing the 'visual fantasy' of the job, which is as important as the mechanical fantasy.

That said, when I think of pet jobs, I think of a second character that actively needs to be managed, either positionally or with their own resources such as health. There are ways to make that non-clunky (PSO2's summoner, for example, is extremely zippy and fast paced and does this with pet positioning and resources mattering quite a bit), but in XIV it is hard to imagine them doing this in a non-limited job. Pet management in a lot of MMOs comes down to you essentially being your pet's healer, buffer, and positioning two characters rather than one. I don't think XIV is gunna do that with SMN, but they might with beastmaster if that ever gets added.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

I think this is a fantastic question.

If the pet is purely aethestetic, which it sorta is except in bad ways right now, the job isn't really a pet job, it just has animations that evoke an external character.

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This is what id want for another pet job (I usually refer to it as a pseudo pet job). They could theoretically just make the pet part of the main attacks animations and have it all be aesthetic wise and i'd be happy about it for another job.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Pet job means most of your damage comes from your pet or that the pet damage contributes to at least 50% of the damage.

Egi is just a glorified DoT that makes up about 1/3 of overall damage.

I don't think pets work in XIV.

I think they need to overhaul egi's and turn them into different trances and have them summon the summon just like you do with Bahamut and Phoenix.

That delayed pet attack is awful. It's like using a macro'd skill.

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Like? It's worse than using a Macro, the delay is immense. Scholars, as a shielding job, already have to predict the incoming raid wide damage, the faerie actions having this delay just add yet another layer to that.

I've been saying this... Is not about "Ah I hate SMN as a pet job/want something else/give me olsdchool FF SMN"... It's just because (agreeing with you) pets do not work in XIV because of technical issues with the way the combat engine is coded. Unless 6.0 brings a really substantial improvement to that structure, pet jobs will always be plagued with these issues. They would end up with 2 possibilities:

1) Make those pets as impactful to the overall SMN performance and as interactive as the MCH's Queen - which will destroy even more the "pet job" archetype of SMN/SCH.

or

2) Like that suggestion... Make pets just a cosmetic thing for the sake of attachment and revolve the SMN into rotating through more than 2 Trances.

The reason why there's so many people suggesting a similar thing to that 2) is that would potentially solve the pet issue and SMN would still maintain a familiar job fantasy, of a mage that summons creatures to temporarily aid in combat.

That's also the very same reason why I think Beastmaster, if implemented, will end up being a Limited Job with pets, but with an unique combat system "minigame" for them. At best you'd also use them out in the world instead of your Chocobo so you'd have something to defend yourself/capture more pets.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

In my comment, I was talking about the case where pet skills replace SMN player skills, i.e. they work just like any other job's skills, except that graphically it's your pet doing the animations, so there doesn't have to be any delays. You're not ordering the pet to do something, it's you who's casting the skill, except the game's graphics shows it as your pet doing the attack. For melee, since pets aren't targetable, they can literally stick to a target even better than any player can ever hope to do, by just doing the processing server side and updating the pet position to be shown on player screens.

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This is also another plausible possibility. But it also leads me to think if such a thing (a spell animating from another actor (e.g. Ifrit-egi) > target rather than your character's model > target) is possible with the current code. I know it might sound like a simple thing, but with the wonky way the "sphagetti code" works in some aspects of XIV, I wouldn't be surprise if that was a limitation and the end result to make this effect working would end in a delay regardless.

Perhaps if the Egi wasn't summoned all the time, and for example... Ifrit-egi would appear just with the animation itself, clawing the target... That could work.

I'd much prefer the Summoner ditch Egi's altogether and go the Blu route and just have summon themed attacks as part of our rotation.

Judgment Bolt and Eruption on Blue Mage is so much more a summon then what Summoner has. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Only fun parts of Summoner I find great is the Bahamut and Phoenix parts since they feel great and impactful. The rest just feels so lame.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Only fun parts of Summoner I find great is the Bahamut and Phoenix parts since they feel great and impactful. The rest just feels so lame.

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So I'm curious. What is it that makes Bahamut and Phoenix feel more impactful than Egi? Size and Appearance? Attack Animation? Raw Numbers?

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

So I'm curious. What is it that makes Bahamut and Phoenix feel more impactful than Egi? Size and Appearance? Attack Animation? Raw Numbers?

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To me it's everything together... The way you summon them after going through a Trance, the appearance, the attack animations.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

So I'm curious. What is it that makes Bahamut and Phoenix feel more impactful than Egi? Size and Appearance? Attack Animation? Raw Numbers?

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How they are summoned. The summon itself being big and imposing like in the games and of course that big attack with that huge burst number.

One of the coolest parts of the old final fantasies was summoning some big ass cool looking monster to come and wreck the place.