What healers could stand to lose.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

I... huh... what? You're saying that what the skills actually do is irrelevant?

Lemme just... respectfully disagree. No, what the skills actually do matters.
My suggestion on having Physick upgrade into Adloquium is based on how the two are actually used, and how they work. Not on how one is supposed to be a "gimmick".

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You are missing what I am saying. I am saying whether the it's a regen or a shield doesnt matter. All of those heals are the GCD heal with the gimmick attached.

Additionally, Adlo unlike Cure II and Benefic II cannot be spammed, not that spamming should be advocated. That's another reason that an upgrade to Adlo doesn't make sense. I don't necessarily disagree with the Cure and Benefic upgrades, but they aren't gimmicks like Adlo, we'd need a Physick II, but I doubt anyone really wants that.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

You are missing what I am saying. I am saying whether the it's a regen or a shield doesnt matter.

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Apparently no, I was not. I absolutely disagree. Whether it gives a regen or a shield absolutely does matter.
It completely changes how the skill is used and how they operate efficiency-wise.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Additionally, Adlo unlike Cure II and Benefic II cannot be spammed, not that spamming should be advocated. That's another reason that an upgrade to Adlo doesn't make sense. I don't necessarily disagree with the Cure and Benefic upgrades, but they aren't gimmicks like Adlo, we'd need a Physick II, but I doubt anyone really wants that.

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If your Adloquium shield is completely gone by the time the next one lands, you can absolutely spam it back to back. Or with a DPS GCD inbetween, depending on the situation. Like I said, this sometimes happens in heavy-hitting trash pulls that draw too long (when your other tools are on cooldown). This not even counting Emergency Tactics.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Apparently no, I was not. I absolutely disagree. Whether it gives a regen or a shield absolutely does matter.
It completely changes how the skill is used and how they operate efficiency-wise.

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Again you are missing the point. All 3 are the gimmick heal, that's it. Of course what they do matters in conjunction to each healers kit, but they are the GCD heals with the gimmick attached. Of course when a true comparison is needed Adlo will bounce off of a Noct A. Benefic and Regen a Diur A. Benefic. But for the purpose of what this topic is about a finer assessment isn't warranted as it's not the gimmicks themselves that are being compared.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

If your Adloquium shield is completely gone by the time the next one lands, you can absolutely spam it back to back. Or with a DPS GCD inbetween, depending on the situation. Like I said, this sometimes happens in heavy-hitting trash pulls that draw too long (when your other tools are on cooldown). This not even counting Emergency Tactics.

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That is possible, but then at that point why wouldn't you just use a more powerful direct heal instead?

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Again you are missing the point. All 3 are the gimmick heal, that's it. Of course what they do matters in conjunction to each healers kit, but they are the GCD heals with the gimmick attached. Of course when a true comparison is needed Adlo will bounce off of a Noct A. Benefic and Regen a Diur A. Benefic. But for the purpose of what this topic is about a finer assessment isn't warranted as it's not the gimmicks themselves that are being compared.

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The gimmicks themselves are not compared. The skills as a whole are. The main situation where you would want to spam Cure II/Benefic II (continuous heavy single-target damage) can be served just as well by spamming Adlo. Actual usage scenarios and efficiency are what make skills useful or not. Keeping Physick around just because Adlo has a gimmick isn't gonna make it useful.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

That is possible, but then at that point why wouldn't you just use a more powerful direct heal instead?

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Because it would be on cooldown? I mention it literally on the same line: "when your other tools are on cooldown".
The same applies to WHM and AST; you use Cure II/Benefic II when more efficient tools (Tetra, Bene, Afflatus, ED, etc.) are on cooldown and/or already in play (Regen, Diur. Asp. Benefic).

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

The gimmicks themselves are not compared. The skills as a whole are. The main situation where you would want to spam Cure II/Benefic II (continuous heavy single-target damage) can be served just as well by spamming Adlo. Actual usage scenarios and efficiency are what make skills useful or not. Keeping Physick around just because Adlo has a gimmick isn't gonna make it useful.

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Never mind, you are missing the point, and I don't know how to make it easier to understand, other than saying that one set of heals are the basic variety, that just do pure heals, and the other the gimmick heals, which provide an additional effect per healer. One set cannot be compared with heals from the other set.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Because it would be on cooldown? I mention it literally on the same line: "when your other tools are on cooldown".
The same applies to WHM and AST; you use Cure II/Benefic II when more efficient tools (Tetra, Bene, Afflatus, ED, etc.) are on cooldown and/or already in play (Regen, Diur. Asp. Benefic).

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The other tools are irrelevant to this conversation though, since they are oGCD/Guage heals and aren't directly comparable to the basic heals or the gimmick heals; regardless of their potencies or any gimmicks attached.

Additionally, I was stating that, at that point, Adlo would work better as a pure heal. Not using one of the oGCD pure heals. Having the shield broken almost the second its applied is not a good thing.

Maybe this will make it clearer to understand. If the healing spells see an upgrade as people have suggested, and Physick did become Adlo as you suggest. That would leave WHM with Cure II, Medica II, and Regen, AST with Benefic II, A. Helios, and A. Benefic, but that only leaves SCH with Adlo and Succor; where is SCH GCD pure heal? They don't have one because it was "removed/upgraded" so why do the other healers still get to keep a pure heal and a seperate gimmick heal.

At that point it would only make sense to "bake" the gimmick into the other two pure heals as well. But at that point the heals would need to be majorly adjusted to compansate for a continuous application of the gimmick. Not to mention the possibility of overheating would increase, especially on regen heals. That's why, within the purpose of this topic, you can't compare Adlo with Cure II and Benefic II. Systematically, the heals serve different functions. Adlo serves the same function as Regen and A. Benefic.

Like I have said, I can see the reasoning behind wanting to upgrade Cure and Benefic to Cure II and Benefic II, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. But the same doesn't work for Adlo, because it is a different class of heal.

EDIT: there is also the fact that the Shield has a time limit attached. Regardless of whether healing is needed or not, once the shield dissipates, the players HP pool reverts to their actual white HP bar, so you would still need to heal them up with a pure oGCD or GCD heal. If a pure heal was used from the start, that added heal wouldn't be needed.

Either way, you shouldn't spam Adlo because of shield delay. You're overwriting the shield before it's even being consumed
In case you don't know - Shield Delay is a 1 second (ish) time frame where the buff is on the the target, but doesn't actually take damage for them. (I believe it affects Hallowed Ground and Superbolide too, as those are treated as infinite HP shields)

In desparate situations like those, you should be alternating between Physik and Adlo.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Something to remember is that we are still early in the expansion, too often people get use to the "end game" prior to a major patch/expansion and get shocked when there is a sudden spike in potency outputs, whether a dip or increase. Currently, in all 470 gear, Physick heal for about 1/5th of my health, and back in the day at level 50 it was also around 1/5th, though near endgame it got closer to 1/4th, so nothing has really changed. If anything what has changed is an emphasis on a healer to focus on healing just a bit more.



That would defeat the entire purpose of SCH's gimmick. Your goal is to use the gimmick heals combined with the basic heals. That's why the Physick to Adlo suggestion doesnt work since Adlo is a gimmick heal not a basic heal. At that point it become what I mentioned earlier, just placing the gimmicks on the basic heals, which just feels lazy.



This is not inaccurate, but the values matter as well. Currently, they are at 675 and 700 base, and 1050 and 700 crit. But what alternative direct healing potency would you give to Adlo to maintain this set up. Keeping in mind that the Shield must be of a decent value and cannot be significantly less in comparison to the AST shield. Currently the AST shield is a 500 potency compared to SCH's 375 for A. Benefic/Adlo and
250 and 225 for A. Helios/Succor. With combined potencies of 700/675 and 450/405, the difference offset by the faerie. The shield needs to be of a decent value otherwise it might as well be direct healing at that point.

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Few things, i think your missing the point why adlo is the gcd that is spammed rather than Physick, critlo gives a way better breathing room than what Physick can offer, yet critlo is random so can take multiple uses, ET adlo is better than Physick tied to a 30s cd, and you don't start going into gcd healing until your out of resources where you want to be able to give yourself as big as a time window as you can get thus adlo is preferred due to critlo.

Did I say to lower the overall potency of Adlo, no, I said could up the direct heal while lowering shield potency this can leave the overall value the same but change how much upfront healing is done.

The basic heals already have gimmicks except Physick but they all go heavily underutilised. Cure 1 has a chance to make cure 2 free, Benefic 1 has a chance to make next benefic 2 crit. Basic gimmicks just like a heal provides a shield with a chance for double shield, yet you are fine with their gimmicks being gone into the upgrade system but sch's one is a nope can't happen kinda double standard there. Interaction may be different but core premise is the same you need to spam gcd heals.

If Physick actually interacted with sch's kit in any way it could have a case for staying around but it doesn't it is the redundant heal and has been for a very long time it is just now that Benefic and Cure have caught up to it.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Never mind, you are missing the point, and I don't know how to make it easier to understand, other than saying that one set of heals are the basic variety, that just do pure heals, and the other the gimmick heals, which provide an additional effect per healer. One set cannot be compared with heals from the other set.

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Why not? You keep saying I'm missing your point, but you seem to be splitting up healer kits and comparing arbitrarily, without concern for how it actually plays. Sure, if you limit your view to just pure GCD heals without any other effects SCH would be missing something, but in the same vein if you limit your view to shielding GCDs then WHM doesn't have anything. You also keep ignoring that the basis for my suggestion is on how and when the skills are actually used in content.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

The other tools are irrelevant to this conversation though, since they are oGCD/Guage heals and aren't directly comparable to the basic heals or the gimmick heals; regardless of their potencies or any gimmicks attached.

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That is possible, but then at that point why wouldn't you just use a more powerful direct heal instead?

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If you really mean to say "a more powerful direct GCD heal without a gimmick", then because I would consider the entire kit available to me at that moment, not just an arbitrary subset.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

They don't have one because it was "removed/upgraded" so why do the other healers still get to keep a pure heal and a seperate gimmick heal.

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Because they have different use cases?

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Originally Posted by Eloah

EDIT: there is also the fact that the Shield has a time limit attached. Regardless of whether healing is needed or not, once the shield dissipates, the players HP pool reverts to their actual white HP bar, so you would still need to heal them up with a pure oGCD or GCD heal. If a pure heal was used from the start, that added heal wouldn't be needed.

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You could just wait for a more opportune moment to heal them with it, or use Emergency Tactics.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Either way, you shouldn't spam Adlo because of shield delay. You're overwriting the shield before it's even being consumed
In case you don't know - Shield Delay is a 1 second (ish) time frame where the buff is on the the target, but doesn't actually take damage for them. (I believe it affects Hallowed Ground and Superbolide too, as those are treated as infinite HP shields).

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Does this still apply when the shield buff visibly drops off your target before your second Adlo lands? That was the scenario I was thinking about in terms of Adlo spam. If the shield doesn't drop, then it means your target is taking less than ~300 potency worth of damage per GCD, and you can probably carefully interweave some DPS inbetween casts.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Does this still apply when the shield buff visibly drops off your target before your second Adlo lands? That was the scenario I was thinking about in terms of Adlo spam. If the shield doesn't drop, then it means your target is taking less than ~300 potency worth of damage per GCD, and you can probably carefully interweave some DPS inbetween casts.

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Damage doesn't come out continuously though, even auto attacks. I don't think I've ever cast adlos back to back and not overwritten.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Either way, you shouldn't spam Adlo because of shield delay. You're overwriting the shield before it's even being consumed
In case you don't know - Shield Delay is a 1 second (ish) time frame where the buff is on the the target, but doesn't actually take damage for them. (I believe it affects Hallowed Ground and Superbolide too, as those are treated as infinite HP shields)

In desparate situations like those, you should be alternating between Physik and Adlo.

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Finally, thank you.

Nevermind the fact that not always does a new shield get applied, in which case you just wasted you MP on a less powerful heal upfront with no additional effect.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

snip.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

snip.

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I just can't anymore. Trying to explain to you guys something that is a basic function/premise of this game is futile if you aren't going to take into account that you are comparing apples and oranges. Both may be fruit, but they are different kinds. The entire point of this topic seems to be derailed all because you think Adloquium should get the same treatment as Cure II and Benefic II, even though they are functionally and fundamentally different.

Whatever, fine you win, happy. Now if you excuse me, I have to raise the Tank, they died during this tedious back and forth. I ran out of MP spamming Adlo and had no Aetherflow left, how did that happen?