FF 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers

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Originally Posted by Renkei

Okay? That's not your scope bro to even say that or even come to that conclusion, The Community Members of that Discord are coming in here and attacking someone who has nothing to do with it. This isn't a post aimed to creatrive negative impact on the community or its members you guys are posting only targeting the op showing how crappy of a community you guys really are.

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The OP used to be a member of the Balance (a community that he brings into the conversation through his guide), and he was told repeatedly that what he is advertising in his documents is not optimal. The document is misleading at best, presenting these openers as an option for optimal play where there are no options for optimal play when it comes to openers and buff alignment in the opener. The majority of this thread is people trying to correct him and explain to him why these are not as great as he thinks they are. Spreading misinformation is pretty crappy, in my opinion; as is attempting to theorycraft for jobs that one has very little understanding of.

OP has every right to play his own openers, rotations, and discuss theorycrafts. The issue is presenting these ideas as a guide for the community. Spreading misinformation is harmful to the average player looking to better themselves.

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Originally Posted by Rockette

OP has every right to play his own openers, rotations, and discuss theorycrafts. The issue is presenting these ideas as a guide for the community. Spreading misinformation is harmful to the average player looking to better themselves.

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This. It is important to note that no one is saying"You CANNOT play that way" we are all simply saying that the OP presenting these openers as a guide and saying they are "optimal" is wrong and will mislead newer players which is not good for the community. It would be one thing if there was extensive math to support the claims about these openers and if that math proved that this way of doing things was actually competitive with what the Balance suggests, but this is not the case. Like LyraEbonfall stated, the mentors on Balance spend hours upon hours upon hours doing nothing but testing different openers, skill rotations, etc to see what gives the highest statistical gains for each job while taking into consideration what gives the highest gains to other jobs. It's A LOT of tireless work and communication going on constantly about any sort of improvement that can be made. The OP is pretty much saying that the extensive amount of work all of these mentors did is wrong and that his feelings on how things should be done is right while offering no support to that claim. To do so is, as someone said, misinformation at best. Intentional toxicity at worst. Especially if the OP is actually only suggesting these because they are the best alignment for his Tornado Kick opener that he loves to do. Attempting to pass off information as "optimal" solely to benefit yourself and no one else is, and always will be, wrong and worthy of condemning.

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Originally Posted by ZyrinMisharuji

snippers

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To piggyback on this point, it was interesting how OP managed to find some TK rotation for MNK. Yes its not optimal at all, but TK being in the spotlight in 4.X was a nice change because it being a disengagement skill felt so bad. Ofc the devs intended it as such, so the TK opener was nerfed to the ground. Again, if you wanna do that, do that.

The issue everyone is bringing is that OP applied this logic to jobs they dont even touch. Iirc before they edited it, the DRG opener had a pointless BotD weave even though 80 DRG (heck, 70 DRG) never needs to press BotD since Lance Mastery exists. How can you possibly talk about "an optimal and alternative way to play" a class youre not clearly 100% about? The answer is, you can't. There are ppl in this thread that point out basic job rotational hiccups that indicate OP doesn't touch the class or even thinks about it more critically.


And the fact they're saying it's an alternate way to boost raid damage is not really true at all. And the fact that they posted this in ALL THREE ROLE FORUMS means they think they're paving the way to a new way of optimal play from like, half the math most theorycrafters and testers in the Balance do. OP is posting nothing more than misinformation. And that's what's offending raiders who consider how to squeeze out as much damage as possible from their jobs and raid buff alignment.

OP has said in another thread that the TK rotation invigorated Monk for him and the "back to 2.0" rotation of Shadowbringers is so awful he decided to look for an alternative rotation in which Monk could utilize more of the skills it has been given.

I empathize with this on a soul level, I really do.

But you can't just...wish things into being better. Unfortunately.

To piggyback on the two previous post: If you want to find ways to implement skills that you feel should be used more, more power to you. I desperately want TK to be usable consistently throughout a fight and for Anatman to not feel so clunky, but I will never and would never suggest using that TK rotation to anyone wanting to push their DPS to the limits because it just doesn't do high enough DPS to be competitive with the current openers available to us.

If you want to use that opener and follow the rotation that allows for TK to be used super frequently, then do so. No one ever wants to tell or be told how they have to play this game. That being said, do not say that it's "optimal" or "close in dps" to the available openers unless you have statistical proof to support that claim. And I don't mean 1 good parse where the stars aligned and you got chakra procs or whatever out the whazoo. I mean hundreds of parses or simulations that show a consistent amount of damage that is within 200-300 DPS of the current best openers (200-300 is sort of a rough range. If you want to be technical for MNKs the PB opener is 400 DPS below the best opener and Anatman opener is 200 DPS below the best opener. But the best opener is really janky and is super universe brain so it isn't recommended at all even though it's the highest DPSing).

I would like the think that everyone who has replied in this forum very much loves the job they main and have the desire to push the DPS of their job to the absolute limits and are constantly trying to do just that, constantly asking questions about anything they think might push them ahead or anything that they're confused about all just to get a consistent gain in DPS. To say "This method is optimal and better than what is the norm/recommended method by Balance" but offer no extensive proof of it actually being better is just sort of a slap in the face to all of us who love our job and love trying to push our DPS to the limits.

So two things.

One, frankly appalled by OP for reposting the same thread across all three subforums and I have to wonder why that doesn't constitute spam.

Second, as I said in one of the other threads,

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Y'all realize that if the OP is such a bad thing, the best way to address the issue is to just let the thread quietly wither away and be buried from lack of responses, rather than attempt to engage someone who obviously doesn't know what they're doing in discourse, right?

(I recognize the irony in my having to post to say that. Don't even bother responding to this, please.)

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OP, i suggest you to not post your finds as facts or absolutes and state that "You have no idea" on half of these classes actually play out the next time. As I said in my previous post, your OP isnt inviting to discussion but claims to be somewhat "optimal". there is where the problem lies.

If you really like monk, go ahead and learn more of a single job instead of adventuring in doing anything close to suggest how to play jobs you've never touched before or have little experience on them.
You are able to correct your documents because people are telling you where you are wrong. You should, by no means, get your job peer checked before claiming absolutes to avoid the problems here stated.

That said, just let the thread die as they've done on healer job forum the best to do is to not pay attention to this.

I was thinking of slowly doing this over the next month or so, but how would people feel if I made individual timelines for each class in relation to raid buffs?

It'd be a lot of work, but it'd make it easier for people to see the goal of these openers at a glance. Plus, if they still need extra confirmation, they'd be able to math it out themselves without having to consistently double check the timestamp of each ability.

Oh my! I can't wait for it!