SE needs to do more to help bad players

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Or you could teach them

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This. No tutorial can teach as well as an active player. If they will not take advice then kick them.

Teach, then kick. Easiest and most effective solution. Just make sure you don't do any little quips, or whatever before you kick. Simply outline the encounter, give tips, and then see if they take it. If they don't. Kick without a word. Don't threaten to kick. Don't say something dumb like 'do x or get kicked'. Simply say something like 'to finish this we need x mechanic to be dealt with' or 'to avoid dying to that, try this'.

Good players will take the advice and hints, Better players will ask. Bad players will continue to fail over and over. Reason for this is they want to be carried. They're either ignorant and don't care, or more than likely they know what they need to do and cannot be bothered.

We have trusts. There's no better tutorial than those. And yet people still can't get pass those. Those players probably just simply can't be helped. That's an instance of players either 'getting it' or 'not getting it'.

The only way to 'help' those players is forcing them out of more content, aka, have another release version of Steps of Faith to force players to learn bare minimum or show them the door.

Also, any healer that claims that they don't need to dps needs to look at the conjurer quest line with the npc going 'But I just want to heal, why do I have to do anything else?'

"2) They are just really bad and do not care...." (Bolding added.)

As one of the people who fails mechanics regularly, I just wanted to address this assumption that I see being made throughout this thread.

Background: 19 years of MMO gaming, from EQ to EQ2 to Rift to GW2 to SW:TOR to TESO to here. No, I never played WoW.

So I have a bit of experience in gaming. One might suspect (rightly) that it's even something I enjoy - perhaps even care about? But, here's the thing - skill levels just differ. I didn't manage to live through an Omega 3 w/ that fricking 'larboard/starboard' mechanic until almost the end of the 4.x cycle. I had watched videos. I had people call out over Discord. Didn't matter - my reaction times simply _are not_ fast enough to handle the 'if you see yellow ground it's already too late' timings that SE seems to favor on current cycle mechanics (I remember going off the edge on Titan all the time during ARR; now I could sleep & still dodge that because they've clearly changed how long the warning is up before the effect triggers).

I try to limit my 'fail drain' on groups by not running too many times repeatedly - I realize that people may get frustrated when I drop after 3-4 attempts, but I think it's probably best for everyone as the group gets another person who's almost certainly more competent (also I often seem to 'get' mechanics better if I STOP beating myself against them for a few days before trying again). After 9 runs at TitaX this weekend, I've managed to make it to the add phase without dying... um... well, I'll let you know when that happens. I've at least made it into the forest phase w/o a death a couple of times, & for me that's progress.

I think the game itself does a decent job of distilling the skill levels through the system of varied difficulties. I've never entered a Savage & probably never will, so the content certainly exists for the hard-core gamers who don't want to get stuck w/ the low-skill people like me. It would be nice if we could continue to share the regular and (on occasion) extreme trails & such, though, without the assumptions that everyone who isn't 'as good' is just lazy or AFKing (as I was once accused of after a 3rd death to an AoE in Dun Scaith; I wish I'd thought of the proper retort at the time - 'Sir or Madam, you severely underestimate my capacity for ineptitude!').

I really don't think it's on the company or creator of the game to make sure you get better while playing. Their are so many variable involved in a player's skill level, it's hard to even begin to break down how to help "bad" players improve.

I think a player has to want to improve first of all. Some people just don't care enough to become a great player.

Hell, depending on when you do a dungeon with me would determine what you thought about my skill. I take the game seriously enough to practice rotations and try to improve skill level. But sometimes I get a bit overwhelmed by all that's going on on-screen, and I miss a button or make a mistake at an inopportune time. Sometimes I smoke weed before I play, and that really ruins my reaction time, but I try to not do dungeons on those days...

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Originally Posted by CazzT

You must be Gumby, stretching like that.
I'm not making a case for Healers to not DPS. Only someone looking for a fight would say this.
My reply was to someone who literally said that it's not the responsibility of DPS to avoid damage. If they're not going to do the bare minimum for their role, they can eat the floor.

And it's not a matter of whether I believe it's a requirement for Healers to DPS. It 100% is not a requirement. It is preferred. There is a difference. But you're eager for a fight and therefore you twist my words.

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I never said you were making a case for Healers to not dps. You're twisting my words. I am pointing out that your previous statement either contradicts the reasoning you were using in your statements prior to that one, or turns your overall argument into one saying that healers aren't actually responsible for anything.

You have been making the case that dps is not one of the requirements, that is to say responsibilities, of the Healer role. Yet in the comment of yours that I initially responded to, you take the stance that it's not the healer's responsibility to heal someone who takes avoidable damage, and that the person who took avoidable damage should just heal themselves. If a Healer should not be expected to be responsible for dps (as you've been saying) because it's not a requirement of the Healer role, then a non-healer should not be expected to be responsible for healing themselves either because that's not a requirement of non-healer roles. To tell a non-healer to heal themselves is equivalent to telling a non-dps (like a healer) to do dps. That is, to do something that is not a requirement of their role.

So in telling someone "heal yourself", you are undermining the reasoning of your previous statements. It makes even less sense when you consider the fact that every healer has dps tools, but not every dps has self-healing tools.

I know your reply was to someone who said it's not the responsibility for DPS to avoid damage. However, that person was saying that in response to what YOU had previously said, while applying YOUR reasoning about healer dps to dodging non-lethal damage. In essence, they're saying that if it's not required for Healers to dps b/c other people should be able to make up for it, then by that same logic it's not required for other people do avoid non-lethal damage because Healers should be able to make up for it.

You can make accusations and make assumptions about other people all you like, but the fact that your first post in this thread was you talking about expecting people to "REEEEE" over what you said make it pretty clear you're the one that came here for a fight. Any eagerness to fight you see in this discussion is coming from you, bud.

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Originally Posted by Machka

I never said you were making a case for Healers to not dps. You're twisting my words.

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You literally did.

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Originally Posted by Machka

That statement is completely inane. You're the one trying to make the case that Healers don't need to dps because their job is to heal.

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I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post.

This responses in this thread seem insanely condescending. Just because you post here basically saying over and over, that if the devs gave us more tools to learn mechanics that people wouldn't be able to learn anything more using said tools. You ppl complain that people are bad, and when someone suggests to add tools to learn the fights, you completely and with NO proof, say people aren't capable to learn in anyway with additional help. Just get over your selves seriously... But coming from these forums this kinda thing comes as no surprise here.

All i want them to do is to implement a giant half screen report with "USE YOUR AOE YOU DUNKY" written in it and being it shown to everyone who is not using their aoes when fighting multiple enemies at once. Only that and it will be golden.

I had too many dps, that were doing much less dps than me on my tank because they couldnt even care to use their skills properly, it is getting super annoying. Clearing dungeon with them takes longer than with trust npcs... I would rather have 2 additional healers in my team than 2 single targeting dps.

XD SE sells some lving potions what did you expect?

You can add millions of tuto or what you want but most of people won't read this or that cause they just don't care of others and play for themselves. Skills have already some descriptions, we have some tutorials, some mentors, people in FCs, videos on internet etc but it takes some efforts and most of those people are just lazy as hell.

You can try to teach them some fight mechanics, in most of cases you will get a "don't tell me how to play" or "fuck u" or your advices will be just ignored even if it's useful and you will still see dps who won't avoid aoes or won't use their LB, tanks who won't turn mobs from the party members or just keep hate on 1 mob but pull packs, healers who won't dps a bit even if all the party is full HP etc etc.

There are exceptions of course but it's really rare.

If it doesn't come from the player itself, it's not SE who will change this behaviour XD so just ignore those bad players, leave the party where they are, deal with it, BL them do what you want but don't ask to SE to change them it's not their job.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

You literally did.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post.

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I literally did not, and the evidence is right in front of you in your own post. You are twisting my words. I never said you were making a case for Healers not to dps. I said you have been trying to make the case that Healers don't need to dps.

In your first post in this thread, you said the following:

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Originally Posted by CazzT

DPS is not a requirement of Healers.

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Is that doesn't mean the exact same thing as "Healers don't need to dps" then I'm not sure what to say.