Low level gameplay: A growing problem

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Originally Posted by Barraind

You heavily overestimate how badly early game is already tuned 3 expansions later.

You could level some dps classes (Dragoon specifically) by mashing 1 button instead of your actual damage combos for a good number of levels.

Hell, dungeons were balanced around cross-class spells being a thing, and situations like: every tank having access to an ae +threat that wasnt on the primary resource, or every healer (and one tank) having access to regularly available mitigation in stoneskin.

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All the more reason not to make it worse.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Perhaps they should do what they did with the healers and give you most of your rotation before level 10. They can trickle in buffs and skills you hardly use until 60+.

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I would not count Wind->Stone->Stone->Cure as a rotation

People seem to think I'm suggesting that jobs should just get their complete rotation a few hours into the game or that people should just be able to skip leveling. I'm not. I understand and appreciate that learning jobs one skill at a time as you level them is a good and fine way to handle the leveling process, but it's currently just too slow. The pace of learning abilities was clearly faster in previous expansions since jobs had more or less the same number of skills but a smaller number of levels to learn them in, and as far as I recall no one's head exploded from the difficulty. The issue is that each expansion makes the low level experience worse and worse because you have the same number of skills stretched over a larger number of levels, with most of those skills getting put in the upper levels for some reason.

The early game in XIV is seriously dull because of how long it takes for jobs to get fun. Not "complete", just fun. While the perspective of a veteran who is used to the game is likely to differ, the combat being boring early on is a complaint I hear from new players all the time. Increasing the rate of experience gained doesn't even help much because the big time sink is the MSQ. When you think about how long it takes to get from a fresh character to Heavensward (easily 50+ hours even if you're rushing) and then realize that by that time your job barely has half its rotation, it paints a sad picture of the new player experience in XIV. In a normal RPG after 50 hours you would expect to be well acquainted with the game and all its systems, not still in its tutorial phase. While it's fair to say that it's a good thing that people learn their job one new skill at a time as they level, I do not think people need to play for weeks and weeks to understand 10 different buttons. Clearly the devs don't think it's a big deal either since they'll gladly sell you a level 70 job with all its skills up front.

The low level gameplay being so slow benefits no one. It turns away new players and makes it frustrating for existing ones. It is like a tutorial that lasts weeks and even after you've cleared it you'll keep getting put back whenever you queue for certain roulettes. XIV being an MMO doesn't mean you should have to play for 50+ hours before the gameplay gets fun.

PangTong has the right of it.

There's nothing fun about hitting one button over and over. There's little thought and little meaning behind it. Its simply 'I need to push this so it isn't super slow.' Whereas by 50 you have a full set to work with that you know you have to use in an intelligent manner not only to make things go quicker, but in many cases to survive.

The dreaded MSQ is why some friends of mine will not play this game. They admit the story is good. They really do. But they want to experience the story on their own terms. Skipping it doesn't do that. Skipping means they skip it. They don't get to play it. And I agree. Content should not be story locked, it should be level locked (or in some cases item level locked). In their words, they just want to play the game, and then do the MSQ when no one else is around.

I agree with this sentiment. I heavily believe MSQ should be optional. The game itself is great. It has some of the best dungeons in the industry. As well as some of the best class design. And before anyone goes on about how the story is the majority of the game. Please don't bother. I completed the ShB MSQ BEFORE the expansion was released. During early access I got to 80 and completed the final trial against Hades. That took literally 2 days. I've been playing for 2 weeks after that. This means MSQ is so far, less than 10% of my time spent playing this game. But yet it gated the over 90% of content I am enjoying right now.

That doesn't make much sense to me.

I highly believe FFXIV could be the MMO to rule them all if they make MSQ optional, and make as PangTong said, make the classes fun right out of the gate. We're talking giving them their earliest rotation earlier. They don't need a full 80, 70, 60, or even 50 kit. Like I suggested, for BLM you would have access to Fire, Blizzard, Lightning, and Transpose. Hell that's what Blackmages started with in every other FF game thus far at level 1. That's not too crazy.

That's very subjective. Again, I started having fun with the game from the beginning with one ability because it's a new game and a new experience for me. Nowadays, when I level synced down, it's nice not to have so many abilities in contrast when I'm trying and failing Titania EX, lol. It's a variety that I appreciate about this game.

Regardless, what's the alternative? Just adding more abilities without trimming doesn't make any sense. So, what? Put more abilities at lower level as opposed to higher level? That would just make the higher level more boring to level when the higher level is supposed to be the new and exciting part, and part of that is because of new abilities. I think what they've done is truly the best way of dealing with it.

As for MSQ, again a subjective topic, but the fact that it's not optional is preferable for me.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

PangTong has the right of it.

There's nothing fun about hitting one button over and over. There's little thought and little meaning behind it. Its simply 'I need to push this so it isn't super slow.' Whereas by 50 you have a full set to work with that you know you have to use in an intelligent manner not only to make things go quicker, but in many cases to survive.

The dreaded MSQ is why some friends of mine will not play this game. They admit the story is good. They really do. But they want to experience the story on their own terms. Skipping it doesn't do that. Skipping means they skip it. They don't get to play it. And I agree. Content should not be story locked, it should be level locked (or in some cases item level locked). In their words, they just want to play the game, and then do the MSQ when no one else is around.

I agree with this sentiment. I heavily believe MSQ should be optional. The game itself is great. It has some of the best dungeons in the industry. As well as some of the best class design. And before anyone goes on about how the story is the majority of the game. Please don't bother. I completed the ShB MSQ BEFORE the expansion was released. During early access I got to 80 and completed the final trial against Hades. That took literally 2 days. I've been playing for 2 weeks after that. This means MSQ is so far, less than 10% of my time spent playing this game. But yet it gated the over 90% of content I am enjoying right now.

That doesn't make much sense to me.

I highly believe FFXIV could be the MMO to rule them all if they make MSQ optional, and make as PangTong said, make the classes fun right out of the gate. We're talking giving them their earliest rotation earlier. They don't need a full 80, 70, 60, or even 50 kit. Like I suggested, for BLM you would have access to Fire, Blizzard, Lightning, and Transpose. Hell that's what Blackmages started with in every other FF game thus far at level 1. That's not too crazy.

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While not an ideal solution, the new game+ feature will actually allow for this. If your friends skip, they could then go back and progress through the story as they saw fit. We'll have to see how it's implemented though.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

To be rather honest, low level dungeons (up to 50) feels for me better now than in was after 3.0 and 4.0 redesign. Maybe it's just me, but I think they did work better this time. And I'm glad there is no 60 button overblow which would not feel any fun, it would be annoying as hell.


As for MSQ.... I'm tired to see how new players come and cry "I want my shinies right now, why I have to work for them!?" Just... duh???? But I will not argue about this, because this will be meaningless hassle part 900000.

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Usually seems more like "Can I have at least halfway decent gameplay along the way, too?" to me...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Usually seems more like "Can I have at least halfway decent gameplay along the way, too?" to me...

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The gameplay's the same from level 1 to cap. Just the buttons you press differ.

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Originally Posted by linay

The gameplay's the same from level 1 to cap. Just the buttons you press differ.

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Good thing every expansion is pointless from a gameplay perspective, since surely Savage feels just like Halatali and there's nothing that can be added that would ever change or enhance gameplay?...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Good thing every expansion is pointless from a gameplay perspective, since surely Savage feels just like Halatali and there's nothing that can be added that would ever change or enhance gameplay?...

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Indeed, so people can play whatever content they want knowing it's the same gameplay because it's the same game and not something totally different.