Let's Talk the Twins and Their End Goals

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Originally Posted by Remedi

It's odd that the tempering of a primal isn't addressed much in-game, considering the implications.
Well until 4.0 that is but even after noone actually commented on the ability to condition primals.

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Actually, I believe they DID address this, during the Coil cutscenes. They explained the very specific circumstances under which Bahamut was able to Temper Louisoix. While I don't remember the exact wording, I believe the gist of it was that Bahamut, having been mortally wounded by Phoenix but not yet finished dispersing into aether, managed to catch Louisoix just as the latter was working to disperse Phoenix's aether to avoid it becoming a blight on the land. Basically, Louisoix was de-transforming, and became vulnerable in the process.

This suggests to me that, in general, Primals cannot temper other Primals - but they CAN temper mortals that have the ability to transform into Primals, and gain control of those Primals in that manner. Folks like Thordan and Yotsuyu provide such an avenue, but probably not Ysayle, since she has the Echo.

Mh I did forget the wording of that cutscene, so it was explained there that's good to know.

But did they comment on Zenos' feat? Because I don't remember them pondering on the possibility of siezing the primal's will with the echo, it could lead to us controlling him to banish itself

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Mh I did forget the wording of that cutscene, so it was explained there that's good to know.

But did they comment on Zenos' feat? Because I don't remember them pondering on the possibility of siezing the primal's will with the echo, it could lead to us controlling him to banish itself

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How many in the empire tho knows of Zenos's capture of Shinryu or the unethical experiments his legion conducted with Aulus to achieve the Resonance?Seems like not many if Zenos was secretive about it and even if they knew,the empire's policy still states that any sort of conduct with a primal is a big no-no

Tbh was thinking about the scions not the empire.
I guess that the empire itself don't know about what Zenos does, maybe Varis does since he has a network of spies, but otherwise no1 did know about Zenos tampering with primals.

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Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1

How many in the empire tho knows of Zenos's capture of Shinryu or the unethical experiments his legion conducted with Aulus to achieve the Resonance?Seems like not many if Zenos was secretive about it and even if they knew,the empire's policy still states that any sort of conduct with a primal is a big no-no

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It's worth noting that Aulus was exiled by Varis, who likely made it a point to keep an eye on him. He didn't approve of Aulus' experiments - and he outright considered Zenos to be a monster unworthy of the throne. It's an opinion likely shared by many within Garlemald - as we'll no doubt see with even more frequency than before once we head into Garlean territory.

Zenos also made it clear that he did not care much for Garlemald to begin with - he simply wanted a 'good fight'. Which is no doubt exactly why his father saw fit not to send him any reinforcements. Varis is also described as an excellent strategist within the lore book, so it's likely that he intended to conveniently do away with Zenos at the hands of the Warrior of Light. The unforeseen consequence is that Zenos ended up surviving in a different body...whilst his corpse is piloted by an Ascian.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Tbh was thinking about the scions not the empire.
I guess that the empire itself don't know about what Zenos does, maybe Varis does since he has a network of spies, but otherwise no1 did know about Zenos tampering with primals.

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Oh,so you mean as in....the scions having the Warrior of Light do the same thing Zenos did with Shinryu?

That seems a bit too risky as I'm sure Zenos's Resonance,as similar to the echo as it is,would have some different priorities than the echo.

And even if they succeed,it isn't guaranteed that the Warrior of Light would survive the process the same way Zenos did(well....before he committed suicide)

The scions are relying way too much on the WoL as it is so pushing him/her further into becoming one with a primal is a bit too much

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's worth noting that Aulus was exiled by Varis, who likely made it a point to keep an eye on him. He didn't approve of Aulus' experiments - and he outright considered Zenos to be a monster unworthy of the throne. It's an opinion likely shared by many within Garlemald - as we'll no doubt see with even more frequency than before once we head into Garlean territory.

Zenos also made it clear that he did not care much for Garlemald to begin with - he simply wanted a 'good fight'. Which is no doubt exactly why his father saw fit not to send him any reinforcements. Varis is also described as an excellent strategist within the lore book, so it's likely that he intended to conveniently do away with Zenos at the hands of the Warrior of Light. The unforeseen consequence is that Zenos ended up surviving in a different body...whilst his corpse is piloted by an Ascian.

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I can see why Varis would want the Warrior of Light to kill Zenos....as heartless as that is xD.

Tho I can imagine Zenos wont take Varis's behavior too well and I won't be surprised if he ended up traveling back to Garlemald using his new body and attempt to slay both his father and Elidibus

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Originally Posted by Remedi

But did they comment on Zenos' feat? Because I don't remember them pondering on the possibility of siezing the primal's will with the echo, it could lead to us controlling him to banish itself

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To my knowledge, they haven't really addressed the possibility of the WoL directly assuming control of a Primal in the way that Zenos did. From a gameplay perspective, it's unlikely we'll ever get that ability; if we did, there'd be no more Primal trial battles, since we could just step in and mind-control the thing! Additionally, the Echo (and probably also the Resonance) expresses itself in different ways in different individuals. Just because Zenos had the ability to control Shinryu does not mean that the WoL will be able to do the same.

It wouldn't surprise me, though, if another Echo/Resonance user managed the same trick sometime in the future. They likely won't live long afterwards, though, since it would be plot-inconvenient to have someone who can clean up Primals so easily!

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

To my knowledge, they haven't really addressed the possibility of the WoL directly assuming control of a Primal in the way that Zenos did. From a gameplay perspective, it's unlikely we'll ever get that ability; if we did, there'd be no more Primal trial battles, since we could just step in and mind-control the thing! Additionally, the Echo (and probably also the Resonance) expresses itself in different ways in different individuals. Just because Zenos had the ability to control Shinryu does not mean that the WoL will be able to do the same.

It wouldn't surprise me, though, if another Echo/Resonance user managed the same trick sometime in the future. They likely won't live long afterwards, though, since it would be plot-inconvenient to have someone who can clean up Primals so easily!

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And even if we got the ability to control a primal,the beast tribe that summoned it would probably need to be involved in that.

Like the only way I could see controlling a primal working....is maybe a boss trial where the beast tribes agreed to summon their primals to aid you for some reason and then you control said primal to maybe create a weakness for an otherwise immune boss.

According to Zenos, the effect of tempering is essentially your will subjugating the will of another, in a way he tempered SHinryu by having a stronger will, which is very similar to what happened with Phoenix.
Personally I think they are trying to tell us something. They have shown us that primals can absorb echo blessed soul orbs and ascians souls.
Then they've shown us that primals can be tempered by the use of the resonance which is essentially a copy of an echo, with Zenos giving us a possible explenation to it.
It's possible that they are telling us they way to seal having ascians without reliying to hard contriviancies like the sword of light, which've seen to be very hard to conjure.

Otherwise I don't get why repeating this plot points.
Granted the reason of why summoning got widespread was because of ascians and would be extremely Ironic if their gift would be their ultimate end.

One thing for sure, it's about time that the story tackles the primal problem seriously.
So far we've been medication at best, we need to find a cure