How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

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Originally Posted by Kuukyo

I have played too many competitive games and people trash talk each other because the stats show that someone is not dealing enough damage as they had expected. It's too easy to see someone not dealing enough damage through their uses of spells/skills/abilities. Using dps meter to measure your own damage is fine, but let other teammates, especially highly competitive and toxic people, know about it is just not fun at all.

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Anyone whos serious about the game enough to be indepth can tell whos bad or not pretty quickly by what skills they use, how they use them, and how theyre faring in mechanics. I am by no means a 'hardcore' player, but Ive done enough tnaking I can spot bad tanks without a meter. One form of dead give away: tanking in tank stance for the entirety of the fight (Game in its current iteration is not designed for tanks to stay in tank stance the entire fight, but to use it as a cooldown or to grab initial enmity).

So in that regards, people who are skilled enough can spot bad players pretty quickly, with or without a parser. Chances are if youre dealing with a toxic person, theyll trash talk you by your class knowledge, with DPS being the cherry on top.

Regardless of my own opinion on parsers (which is that I would always expect at least one person in the group to have one, and I like to know my own numbers when I'm doing things worth parsing), I can see the logic behind not even adding a personal parser.

I mean, the first time the group wipes due to low DPS, expect the chat to flood with "Post your numbers" or people throwing their own numbers out voluntarily to demonstrate that it wasn't them i.e. point fingers at others. This is inevitably going to lead to people being badgered, especially if they don't want to share their numbers. (The opinion "People with low DPS deserve to be badgered" is a whole other can of worms.) Probably would be plenty of salt if someone lies about their numbers and others notice (such as if someone is using a "real" parser). I doubt it would go this far in most parties, but there would probably even be some parties listed as "If you don't want to share numbers, don't join" or even "SS in Discord required." If they make the personal parser optional, please look forward to "Parse or don't join" groups in PF.

The argument that "There's already plenty of ways to be toxic, so adding this won't increase toxicity" is kind of like saying "There's already plenty of ways for my house to burn down, so there's no reason not to leave the stove on." Any additional avenue to harass others will result in more harassment; that's just the nature of humans. To me, the question isn't "Will this cause more harassment?" but "Does the amount of benefit this would have outweigh the increase in harassment?" The devs seem to be on the side of no, it won't.

(Side note: As a PS4 player, I find it a bit ://// when people on PS4 act like they have no way of judging their skill and output. Even without a parser, anyone who has decent understanding of the game and other DPS classes can tell who is being a drag to the party--and you can definitely tell when it is you who is weighing the party down. Pretending you have no sense of where you stand in DPS just because you don't have access to a parser is nothing but a nice-sounding excuse.)

They've already basically said no to parsers a million times, so I doubt anything is going to change there. What I'd like to ask for is a more effective Stone, Sky, Sea. When the dummy has no mechanics, there's zero chance it could ever be an accurate measure of your output under pressure. The Dummy ought to be able to utilize at least some of the boss's AOEs to better simulate the real fight.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

[...] I can spot bad tanks without a meter. One form of dead give away: tanking in tank stance for the entirety of the fight (Game in its current iteration is not designed for tanks to stay in tank stance the entire fight, but to use it as a cooldown or to grab initial enmity).

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Not a good example. They aren't necessarily bad, just maybe perhaps they more comfortable in staying in that stance instead of dancing between them. And I rather give the healer more wiggle room to possibly DPS and save the healing for DPS roles that fail mechanics, than me (a PLD) do a spec more damage.

Speaking of which, even with stance dancing, the DPS still are a issue these days - With all 10 role actions at their disposal, they still don't use Diversion or other actions frequently. And not to mention using single target attacks on groups of 4 and more. And much more.

I rather like the parser to have a stab on the bottom line and get the real bads thrown out of the door rather than antagonize anyone else, as long the performance they do is sufficient.

Let me set this right here: Yoshi-P's Official Statement - In-Game Parser https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ingame_parser/

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

One form of dead give away: tanking in tank stance for the entirety of the fight (Game in its current iteration is not designed for tanks to stay in tank stance the entire fight, but to use it as a cooldown or to grab initial enmity).

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No. Just...no.

1) Person might not be comfortable stance dancing. Losing hate on a boss is much more troublesome than someone not wanting to get out of tank stance. In fact, if they aren't comfortable stance dancing, I welcome them to stay in tank stance, rather than risk the boss tankbusting a dps.

2) Tank might be a good tank, but undergeared. Not everyone can drop the millions upon millions of gill for the i380 crafted gear. And given that it's only the end of week 1, most people are going to have an i390 creation ring...at best. Just because you might be on O11S already, doesn't mean everyone else is.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Not a good example. They aren't necessarily bad, just maybe perhaps they more comfortable in staying in that stance instead of dancing between them. And I rather give the healer more wiggle room to possibly DPS and save the healing for DPS roles that fail mechanics, than me (a PLD) do a spec more damage.

Speaking of which, even with stance dancing, the DPS still are a issue these days - With all 10 role actions at their disposal, they still don't use Diversion or other actions frequently. And not to mention using single target attacks on groups of 4 and more. And much more.

I rather like the parser to have a stab on the bottom line and get the real bads thrown out of the door rather than antagonize anyone else, as long the performance they do is sufficient.

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Any serious (or semi serious) static will kick you after a few runs if they notice youre tanking in Grit/SwordOath/Defiance for the entirety of EX/Savage fight. As I said, the game is not currently designed for you to sit in tank stance. After getting initial hate in any raid or savage content, you can do the rest of the fight in DPS stances.

Being 'comfortable' is just another way of saying "Im to lazy and/or insecure in being able to tank and use my CDs effectively to drop out of tank stance". For someone whos got lvl 70 tanks, and supposedly mains one, its slightly baffling you think good tanking is "sit in grit" the entire fight.

As for DPS roles, yeah, I do agree that DPS (and players in general) are not playing at the full potential. A lot of players are phoning it in, or rather those who live the PUG life. Single target DPS instead of trying to maximize AoE DPS, not using aggro dumps, not using damage mitigators on AoEs, etc etc. Im actually glad with the current tier that some of the fight mechanics are indeed pushing players to use those skills more frequently to be effective and 100% less dead. Not to say Im not seeing tanks do their part. Half the tanks Ive seen seem to have some kind of allergy to Reprisal, or dont know how to circle shirk in raids, or us LD/HG/Holmgang as cooldowns to deal with mechanics rather than saving them as "Oh Snaps!" buttons.

I think the unfortunate side effect of SB and how they redid some of the classes is people got lazy, and now then started complaining about how "easy" things were. Now with the newer content pushing the envelope a touch, things should hopefully get a touch better. Maybe

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

No. Just...no.

1) Person might not be comfortable stance dancing. Losing hate on a boss is much more troublesome than someone not wanting to get out of tank stance. In fact, if they aren't comfortable stance dancing, I welcome them to stay in tank stance, rather than risk the boss tankbusting a dps.

2) Tank might be a good tank, but undergeared. Not everyone can drop the millions upon millions of gill for the i380 crafted gear. And given that it's only the end of week 1, most people are going to have an i390 creation ring...at best. Just because you might be on O11S already, doesn't mean everyone else is.

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Le sigh.

My gear is not 'Gil Dropped Over melded 380+ crafted gear'. Im running 360-370 Ryumaki and Diamond with two 380 pieces from Alphascape, and the Suzu Ex weapon primarily. Ive not bought any Genesis gear yet. I still tank outside of Grit in Content Im clearing. Why? Because the fights are designed for it and Im a good tank who has learned how to do it with healers who have learned how to heal tanks outside of grit with DPS who have learned to DPS with tanks who arent using grit. We're not having problems.

People like you are only proving you do not know the mechanics of the class.

So let me just break it down easy for you:

Enmity should not be an issue for you in the current tier, particularly, because after getting initial aggro, your DPS should keep hate so long as your teams DPS is using proper aggro Dumps AND your OT is circle shirking with you. In a proper group, I very VERY rarely have enmity issues, and if it does occur, it is almost ALWAYS my fault for not doing something I shouldve been doing. And if DPS arent using aggro dumps, be a good tank and tell them to use them. And btw, Tank busters are there to force you to perform certain actions. There are no single target tank busters which will kill you unless its intended to do so because you failed a tank swap. You can cooldown through all of htem wihtout tank stance. And hey, guess what! You can turn your tank stance back ON if you really want to! Imagine that! Using tank stance LIKE A CD!

And you dont get comfortable doing something unless you practice. Its literally "Git Gud". 'Cause guess what. I used to play the way you suggest. So I know full well that feeling of being told "Dont tank in tank stance." But I wanted to raid, and I wanted to be better, so I actually practiced tanking outside of tank stance. And guess what, its not that hard. If anything, its funner. Dont come up to me telling me that "A good tank plays in Tank stance!" cause thats not the way it is. Thats real beginner way of thinking in the game as it currently is. You want better tanks (and better players), its about encouraging them to start doing things that theyre not comfortable doing and learning how to manage. That makes better players. Telling tanks to stay in tank stance cause its "easier" just keeps tanks in the dark about how to be a better, more proactive tank. It also keeps them from attempting harder content because the better players wont play with a tank who cant stance dance.

If SE does not want players to see other players dps numbers there is a solution that would let us have an ingame parser.
The parser only show the player their own numbers, that is the basis here.
The other part could be the parser show if you are above or below what is required by your class and by how much, this would be the minimum based on numbers from SE and not some arbitrary number made by players, pretty much answering if you do your part in avoiding an enrage or not.
Since it would not parse the other players it would be harder to use it as ammunition for insulting players with a dps that is not good enough in the users eyes, it would only show if you yourself is were you need to be. This should be enough if the purpose is to improve yourself and nothing else.

In order for it NOT to be toxic it would have to display only the users dps and no one elses.

Le sigh indeed....couple things

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

My gear is not 'Gil Dropped Over melded 380+ crafted gear'.

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I'm gonna call this even right here. We both erred. I presumed you were a hardcore balls to the wall, paramilitary 'DO IT MY WAY' type. Oops. Sorry, jumped the gun on that one....

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

People like you are only proving you do not know the mechanics of the class.

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...Or did I? This is why I say we are even. I assumed something that wasn't correct about you...your gear, my bad, but you are going to assume I don't know how the basics of the game works? I'm currently in the process of farming for the new(er) tank mounts. I'm starting with the Dark Knight, only because I hate Warrior so much that I want to put it off for as long as possible. I know how tanking works. I drop tank stance just like (most) everyone else during bosses, and just like (most) everyone else, get a little miffed when dps don't bother to use diversion...but I manage. I won't raid with my tanks...I like tanking (on paladin), but not enough to raid...so it's only logical for you to know the finer points better than me - a person that is merely trying for his tank mounts. But to assume that I know nothing? Let alone the basics of the game? C'mon.

What I do know, is that my tanks came in to Burn and Arboretum at i350ish, all accessories and belt was gear from O1 and O2S, cause the weekly limit was gone, might as well get what you can, right? Plus I took a hiatus from this game, so I was not in Mendacity gear. In this i350ish gear, all I can say is...even after establishing hate and following rotations like a good little dark knight. Higher geared hardcore players devastated me when trying to keep hate. To the point where At about 20%, I had to go back in to Tank Stance, to ensure I didn't make an even bigger ass of myself, and lose tank aggro.

So Whatever you have on paper, and in theory, works only there. Were you the tank in that situation? I have no doubt in my mind you would have popped a Superior Strength Potion or whatever the hell you use mid rotation in order to maximize your deeps, yo, and maybe set a world record for keeping hate against i380 pentamelded allies, while in i350 gear, in The Burn. You're a pro. Have a cookie.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

And you dont get comfortable doing something unless you practice.

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And you don't practice anything in this game, unless you want to get mocked and ridiculed for it. Case and point: Here I am siting reasons (and I'm not the only one) as to why someone might tank stance a boss (I'm not even talking extreme/savage bosses here, because the average player doesn't do those), and I admit, I had a little bite in my comment, maybe incited a bit of bite in return...but lo and behold...Suddenly I'm a guy that doesn't understand how Enmity works. I'm a lowly pleb pleading his case amongst the elite masses. This is why people don't practice, unless among friends or friendly FC...because if they did it in front of strangers...they'd get torn a new asshole for being bad.

I mean, for Christ's sake, look no further than pugging an extreme trial. I can count on one finger (Yes, one finger, not hand. I did that on purpose) how many extreme trials I have been in that last at best three attempts, before muttering about how it was a trap party, or if we are lucky, they just leave outright without saying anything. This is a clear example of how people will take any opportunity to shit on someone for trying.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Its literally "Git Gud". 'Cause guess what. I used to play the way you suggest. So I know full well that feeling of being told "Dont tank in tank stance." But I wanted to raid, and I wanted to be better, so I actually practiced tanking outside of tank stance. And guess what, its not that hard.

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First. I didn't suggest it. I merely sited reasons as to why someone might do it. Me having to keep reminding you of this is certainly becoming a running motif in this discussion, isn't it?

Second. Good. I'm glad you are playing with the big boys and girls. Visualize your dreams, and go for them, I say. I mean, when I bit the bullet and finally tried my hand at stance dancing, it was like a sense of accomplishment. A trophy on the wall! But at least realize they are just your dreams...not everyone else's.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

funner.

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Not a word. Don't get me wrong, I typo with the best of 'em, and I am by far not an English expert. Just stood out, and it bothered me.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Dont come up to me telling me that "A good tank plays in Tank stance!" cause thats not the way it is.

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I didn't? I never once defended that playing in tank stance is the way to play. I merely sited reasons as to why people might do it. But it's ok...alot of people misunderstand me.

Anyway. Yea...you know what the say about arguing on the internet...eventually it all leads back to Hitler. (Godwin's Law, if you aren't aware of that expression.) We can just forget this ever took place.

Lastly: I know I used 'sited' instead of 'cited.' But this is a long post, and I'm too lazy to fix it. So...there's two things for you to use when you make a retort to this post 1) How I spelt cited wrong, and 2) How I'm lazy, which somehow you will link to me being a bad player.

You don't have to use those...I just thought I'd help this internet argument along