When should I drop tank stance?

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I believe most are referring to swapping stances after the pull/initial threat/initial cooldowns have been used. That's how I do it anyways.

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Then this has all been one heck of a huge misunderstanding. :o Because as Nynuwe so eloquently explained, it's totally acceptable to swap stances after the pull with the right group under ideal conditions. (I'd still put emphasis on the phrases right group and ideal conditions, though. ;) )

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

All that other junk about checking your party members gear, asking permission, etc is just poppycock. Maybe I'm just an inconsiderate bastard, probably at least halfway so, but people have to learn their limitations. If I screw up and the party wipes I usually always take the blame regardless of whose fault it actually was, I've never berated a healer or DPS. Nor have I berated a tank for NOT pulling big groups when I level other jobs. So it doesn't bother me, and I don't recall ever getting into it with someone. I go in there, do what I'm supposed to do and GTFO.

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And while I may not necessarily agree with the first part of that, I do respect that you're willing to own up to your mistakes when things go to pot. That's what any good, responsible tank would do.

There have been times when I would switch to DPS stance after a large pull just to speed things along, but that's almost always been when it seemed like mob fights were taking longer than they should have and there was no chance of the DPS ever pulling enmity off of me. Unfortunately, there have been times when that also meant my healers were running dangerously low on MP, because baddies just weren't dying fast enough. That's when I have to weigh the faster DPS against the possibility that the loss of 20% damage reduction will get me killed for sure. And let's face it, while I'm certain some exceptions do exist out there, we PLDs aren't generally known for putting out massive amounts of damage. XD

I've actually had really competent DPS thank me for holding enmity well enough for them to go full-throttle without having to worry about peeling stuff off of me. I think it's awesome and a sign of efficiency when a monster dies right before they're about to snatch the Ace from me, because it means there was no wasted enmity gen. Obviously, this doesn't work for some people, and hey, I'm not going to tell you how to play PLD. But it's worked superbly for me, and I rarely, if ever, have to vote abandon because a DF dungeon group is so irredeemably bad.

Well, I think that tank stance is just useless and if you need to use it, that means you or your group are bad or not playing properly.
My DRK is constantly getting top damage done in large pulls situations (most ppl just dont give it all at dungeons), it's impossible to generate more enmty unless the dps focus on a single target.
When i'm against bosses, I start on dps stance and ask people to use enmty control actions, they don't and I end up using enmity combos more than I should.
Be aware that people aren't used to tanks in dps stance. I was kicked from a group once even though we got to the last boss without a single casuality, they just couldn't accept how I wanted to play and decided to kick me few steps away from the last boss. I guess the extra healing is too much for some people.

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Originally Posted by VCassara

When i'm against bosses, I start on dps stance and ask people to use enmty control actions, they don't and I end up using enmity combos more than I should.
Be aware that people aren't used to tanks in dps stance. I was kicked from a group once even though we got to the last boss without a single casuality, they just couldn't accept how I wanted to play and decided to kick me few steps away from the last boss. I guess the extra healing is too much for some people.

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And once Diversion goes out, I'm going to pass you. Solo tank threat generation outside tank stance is ass, and you save yourself a huge headache by just doing one single threat combo in Tank stance before dropping it, because it's like the equivalent of doing 16k DPS worth of threat. But no, sure, do about 50 more DPS over the course of the fight just so you can tell everyone else to "use their enmity control actions".

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

And once Diversion goes out, I'm going to pass you. Solo tank threat generation outside tank stance is ass, and you save yourself a huge headache by just doing one single threat combo in Tank stance before dropping it, because it's like the equivalent of doing 16k DPS worth of threat. But no, sure, do about 50 more DPS over the course of the fight just so you can tell everyone else to "use their enmity control actions".

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People arent that hardcore on dungeons, its very hard to see people doing 6k+ dps on single target. When you are using your actions properly, there is no problem at all. The boss will die much faster and 1 or 2 enmity combos will be enough (for DRK at least).

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

And once Diversion goes out, I'm going to pass you. Solo tank threat generation outside tank stance is ass, and you save yourself a huge headache by just doing one single threat combo in Tank stance before dropping it, because it's like the equivalent of doing 16k DPS worth of threat. But no, sure, do about 50 more DPS over the course of the fight just so you can tell everyone else to "use their enmity control actions".

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Yes and no. If you are a good player, you will (odds are) be the best player in your dungeon. I, for example, have pentamelded gear, lv 381 as we speak with suzaku weapons and cleared Alpha v1 1st week. I dont say this to brag, I say this because when I enter a roulette, that is what I come in with. Optimal rotations and openers, better gear than the other 3 people (vast majority of the time), and generally bring my A game to get it done, etc. So I can EASILY keep threat in any dungeon I run with 99% certainty purely through gear and experience. The avg DF roulette party is not a MC/HC raid group of players. They will not, on avg, play nearly as well or have nearly the same gear.

However, flip the script. If you are a DPS in the same 'high level' category, you will also out gear and out experience your avg DF roulette party by an order of magnitude. So you WILL pull hate of a plucky tank that wants to DPS stance with his i360 tome weapon he just bought vs your 385 suzaku spear/bow/staff/etc. You have optimized openeres and rotations. They probably dont.

If you are a high performing tank, you can do whatever the F you want in a dungeon. You will never loose threat, and have 30+ ilvls of defense and HP over the mobs youre fighting and actually use your CDs properly and can shrug off the entire dungeon hitting you at once without breaking a sweat. But if you are any other job and overshadow your group, suddenly enmity is and other items are an issue because the tank isnt prepared for you.

#TankPrivilege

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Originally Posted by Aana

#TankPrivilege

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Which is why you gotta put those uppity ones IN THEIR PLACE.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

I think the supreme irony that's lost on a lot of people here is that when you're pulling, you're not actually really doing a whole lot of DPS. So what's the point? Unless we're talking about pulling in tank stance and then switching to DPS stance after the pull stops, but that's not the impression I've been getting.

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No, you're supposed to keep it on until the pull stops because a stray autoattack might take aggro off of your single unmend/abyssal drain/overpower/tomahawk/flash/whatever if you're running around in dps stance pulling. I even said in my earlier post you keep it on until you reach your cozy little corner and then drop it and start spamming your drains and quietus for DRK.

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Originally Posted by KatsuraJun

No, you're supposed to keep it on until the pull stops because a stray autoattack might take aggro off of your single unmend/abyssal drain/overpower/tomahawk/flash/whatever if you're running around in dps stance pulling. I even said in my earlier post you keep it on until you reach your cozy little corner and then drop it and start spamming your drains and quietus for DRK.

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In any case, I'm glad we appear to be on the same page now. Cheers.

If you have to ask you cant afford it. Most applicable statement to the discussion.

Learning when/if to drop tank stance is based entirely on experience. There is no set formula for it.

Do you know how much/often you're gonna take damage? Can you look at your healers gear/actions and tell if they are capable of handling the extra healing? Can your dps do good dmg and use their hate shedding tools? Can you even tell if your dps are good or using their hate tools? Can you even do good dmg yourself to justify swapping to dps stance?

I've honestly tanked entire dungeons in dps stance because I saw from the first pull that me and the healer were well above the dps in terms of skill. I needed to push that extra dps to speed up the process.

I've also had instances where dps are good but just not using hate tools so I need to stay in tank stance a bit more to control hate(or if I'm in a bad mood just let them die).

Once you see different situations and learn to read your group it will work wonders for your ability as a tank. You will make mistakes and so will your party members. Your job is to be able to understand what went wrong and if you could have done something differently to correct it. Then you can learn to adapt and "git gud" like they say.

Most of the advice on here should be taken with a grain of salt. Even mine. I am not perfect and anyone who says they are has already lost the argument. When you think you have nothing left to learn you stop learning. Never stop looking for ways to improve no matter how small and insignificant.

I'd say that in general most bosses can be tanked in DPS stance, there's really very few bosses that truly require you to stay hardcore tank stance only. I say that you should always pull mobs in tank stance, since you really need to have experience and a healer you can trust if you are going to be pulling mobs in DPS stance. Except Warriors, they have a DPS stance, and a bigger DPS stance :p