Where is the "never before seen content"?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Raids and the weekly cache are the only things that can't be grinded as much as the player likes in WoW.

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Last time I played, most everything worth pursuing was locked to at least a daily schedule at the shortest - things like world quests and dungeon bonuses (such as they were). Some of the reputation grinds did allow for completing dungeons tied to them, so there was that...but I don't recall those taking long (most were the second highest rep level by the time you finished questing) so the life of that as a motivator for content was short.

I mean, speaking of current content specifically, dungeons here and dungeons there you can farm as much as you want, mythic dungeons there you can so long as you have keystones to do it (so it's limited, but in a different way), Trials here you can. Daily quests here and once a day, World quests (which are just daily quests without requiring you to accept/turn in) there are once a day.

PvP you can grind Wolf Marks here or Honor Points there...

Are you sure you're not thinking of an older time in WoW (when grinding reps and currency for gear was less restrictive/less based on daily tasks)?

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Are you sure you're not thinking of an older time in WoW (when grinding reps and currency for gear was less restrictive/less based on daily tasks)?

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Good time it was mate

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Last time I played, most everything worth pursuing was locked to at least a daily schedule at the shortest - things like world quests and dungeon bonuses (such as they were). Some of the reputation grinds did allow for completing dungeons tied to them, so there was that...but I don't recall those taking long (most were the second highest rep level by the time you finished questing) so the life of that as a motivator for content was short.

I mean, speaking of current content specifically, dungeons here and dungeons there you can farm as much as you want, mythic dungeons there you can so long as you have keystones to do it (so it's limited, but in a different way), Trials here you can. Daily quests here and once a day, World quests (which are just daily quests without requiring you to accept/turn in) there are once a day.

PvP you can grind Wolf Marks here or Honor Points there...

Are you sure you're not thinking of an older time in WoW (when grinding reps and currency for gear was less restrictive/less based on daily tasks)?

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PvP there is actually worthwhile doing and is not dragged down by poor servers/netcode. I could level 10- cap off pvp and do different battle grounds at any given level. I think at 20? maybe it is 30 idr, where you have acess to more battle grounds then here at max level, and the entry point of doing pvp there is small and not gated by tedious MSQ. (You have to be so far to be 30 here along with having a job)

There the different battle grounds, the acutall doing the content makes them worthwhile and an alt way of gaining exp. Here it is... dead.. unattractive, and pointless.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I agree with the reasoning but I doubt that ppl were really that sold on ultimate and rival wings. I don't really think pvp are that interested in pvp on this game also the report of 200k extra players have come so late in 4.0 that imho it should've been were the drop should've started, since lucky bancho bases itself on activity they can't just be accounts, also since it was 3.5 months after SB release the effect of a new players shoudl've been reabsorbed by then.

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the first week or so people where interested in it, I guess they where "sold" upfront? then after people learned that it sucked, bombed right after.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I will preface my response by saying it's entirely speculative. So please keep that in mind.

That aside, I suspect the upswing in 4.1 came due to players still returning, Ultimate and Rival Wings. Both were hyped exceptionally, especially the latter in conjunction with the PvP changes. Collect all that with an easier Savage and promises of a scaling difficulty, and people had more to keep themselves occupied. Something else you can attribute to increased subs in 4.1 is raiders opting to stick around. After all, they now had Ultimate whereas before, they didn't have a whole lot to do. Additional housing wards also came out around this time. So why the subsequent drop? Rival Wings imploded while Savage being made easier also meant it possessed less longevity. The reception towards Alte Roite and Catastrophe weren't exactly stellar either, at least amongst my own circles. Even casual groups like NEST pointed out Alte Roite was a bit too easy, which says something.

As more players finished Stormblood, I wager many found there wasn't actually all that much available with any lasting appeal. The PvP "improvements" bombed, hard, and 4.1 offered very little outside niche content. Therefore, when 4.2 came around, you saw a noticeable dip—one that only recovered because Eureka was supposed the "next big thing." That brought players back given how much focus was placed on it's innovation. And the divisive response is why those active numbers dropped sharply thereafter.

We may see another upswing around 4.4 because of the Monster Hunter Collab, but I guarantee it will plummet severely come 4.5, especially if we're given no new surprises beyond more Eureka.

Stormblood has basically fed off constant hype yet poor sustainability. Be it Ultimate, PvP, Eureka all the way to something as simple as job gauges. They were all hyped substantially despite only Ultimate paying any real dividends. And if 4.5 does repeat the drought of 3.5, I cannot help wonder if people's faith will have been spent. After all, if they follow predictable patterns, we're looking at a very lengthily drought with virtually nothing to do. Stormblood was supposed to SE's chance to be innovative. Instead, they played it punishingly safe, going so far as to make everything even easier. I just can't see them getting away with a retread of that same philosophy come 5.0.

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agreed with all of that.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I agree with the reasoning but I doubt that ppl were really that sold on ultimate and rival wings. I don't really think pvp are that interested in pvp on this game also the report of 200k extra players have come so late in 4.0 that imho it should've been were the drop should've started, since lucky bancho bases itself on activity they can't just be accounts, also since it was 3.5 months after SB release the effect of a new players shoudl've been reabsorbed by then.

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They may have kept interest enough players stuck around an extra month or two, which happened to coincide with the census update. As for the sheer number, that is less surprising since people were likely still pushing through Stormblood. While an overall poor patch, 4.1 didn't bomb nearly to the extent 3.1 did. So you wouldn't see quite the same implosion. Another factor is your typical passerby bleed off. Significant drop offs six months or following a new expansion isn't too uncommon.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

On your second point you are kinda mistaken. The second spike was registered on 4.3 release, that 90k extra players happened during eureka not after, somehow something held the bleed that eureka created and that is something I don't understand either, although tormenteddragon thought that perhaps it was because they had returning campaign in that period which might've been a factor.

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That was my point though. People resubbed because of Eureka. The 4.25 census released two days before the actual patch, thus it's quite probable people waiting to hear opinions or see gameplay hadn't been accounted for yet were in the subsequent update.

As for Ultimate and Rival Wings. There was definitely hype surrounding both. Curiosity can be a major motivator. Those Twitch views likely enticed both old players and new. FFXIV saw numbers it's never seen before or since, UwU notwithstanding.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They may have kept interest enough players stuck around an extra month or two, which happened to coincide with the census update. As for the sheer number, that is less surprising since people were likely still pushing through Stormblood. While an overall poor patch, 4.1 didn't bomb nearly to the extent 3.1 did. So you wouldn't see quite the same implosion. Another factor is your typical passerby bleed off. Significant drop offs six months or following a new expansion isn't too uncommon.



That was my point though. People resubbed because of Eureka. The 4.25 census released two days before the actual patch, thus it's quite probable people waiting to hear opinions or see gameplay hadn't been accounted for yet were in the subsequent update.

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It's possible, but I find it very strange that ppl came into activity 1-2 month into the expansion release and not during.

However I disagree with ppl waiting 4.25 to resub for eureka because let's be honest the opinion on eureka in many places wasn't that great

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Originally Posted by Remedi

It's possible, but I find it very strange that ppl came into activity 1-2 month into the expansion release and not during.

However I disagree with ppl waiting 4.25 to resub for eureka because let's be honest the opinion on eureka in many places wasn't that great

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You do realize, while not in large number, some will resub in the middle of patches that been gone a while?

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

You do realize, while not in large number, some will resub in the middle of patches that been gone a while?

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No one's been stating otherwise. But the fact that, say, some people show up even on the days an amusement park looks like a ghost town doesn't tell you how to milk attendance on both high- and low-pop days.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

We may see another upswing around 4.4 because of the Monster Hunter Collab, but I guarantee it will plummet severely come 4.5, especially if we're given no new surprises beyond more Eureka.

Stormblood has basically fed off constant hype yet poor sustainability. Be it Ultimate, PvP, Eureka all the way to something as simple as job gauges. They were all hyped substantially despite only Ultimate paying any real dividends. And if 4.5 does repeat the drought of 3.5, I cannot help wonder if people's faith will have been spent. After all, if they follow predictable patterns, we're looking at a very lengthily drought with virtually nothing to do. Stormblood was supposed to SE's chance to be innovative. Instead, they played it punishingly safe, going so far as to make everything even easier. I just can't see them getting away with a retread of that same philosophy come 5.0.

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I doubt it's that dire. By the time 4.5 comes around, they'll have Fanfest and announce the next expansion. This will start bringing people back who took a break so they can catch up on before 5.0 hits. And even if 5.0 ends up following the exact same pattern to the letter, it'll still sell well as if it were a single-player game -- people will come back, buy the expansion, sub for a few months, and then take a break again until 5.5 in prep for 6.0. That itself is a large and valuable market for this game. In the meantime, there are still enough people who don't mind the pattern to keep the game afloat.

In the end, as much as people complain about the familiar pattern, this is SE's most financially-successful MMORPG by far. At this point, it can afford to play it safe until it rides into the sunset, if that's its fate. The real question, as even SE has alluded to recently, is how long they want to keep this game running, or if they hope to transition their focus to a new MMO. That decision will probably be the key factor in terms of how much room there'll be for changing the formula (probably after 5.x, though, as they've said before that 5.x concludes the current story arc).

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Last time I played, most everything worth pursuing was locked to at least a daily schedule at the shortest - things like world quests and dungeon bonuses (such as they were). Some of the reputation grinds did allow for completing dungeons tied to them, so there was that...but I don't recall those taking long (most were the second highest rep level by the time you finished questing) so the life of that as a motivator for content was short.

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Early Legion had the Artifact Power grind, a grind that was so ridiculous that it even made people quit, simply because they felt like they didn't have time to do anything else on their main/alt. It was also pretty time-consuming to clear out all the world quests, especially after they added paragon reputations (post-exalted reputation that would give you a reward cache with every 10k reputation).

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Originally Posted by Berethos

I mean, speaking of current content specifically, dungeons here and dungeons there you can farm as much as you want, mythic dungeons there you can so long as you have keystones to do it (so it's limited, but in a different way), Trials here you can. Daily quests here and once a day, World quests (which are just daily quests without requiring you to accept/turn in) there are once a day.

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Mythic keystones were hardly limited, even more so after they changed them. Before the change, you could just list your party in the group finder and get someone with a mythic keystone, then hope that it wouldn't get depleted (ie: not clearing the dungeon in time). After the change, keystones simply can't deplete anymore, and the one using the keystone simply gets a new one after the run, which would either be upgraded if the party cleared it fast enough, or downgraded by 1 if the party did not (or did not complete it at all).
Emissary quests are more like the daily quests of WoW, while the world quests themselves pop up throughout the day. If you do a bunch of world quests in the morning, you can expect to have a bunch of world quests respawn in the evening.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Are you sure you're not thinking of an older time in WoW (when grinding reps and currency for gear was less restrictive/less based on daily tasks)?

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I'd hardly call Legion's grinds more restrictive than previous expansion, considering players had free reign on how much AP they wanted to grind, the titanforging giving any content the possibility of dropping an upgrade, as well as any content done by the player adding to the "bad luck protection" of obtaining any of the legendary items.

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Originally Posted by polyphonica

I doubt it's that dire. By the time 4.5 comes around, they'll have Fanfest and announce the next expansion. This will start bringing people back who took a break so they can catch up on before 5.0 hits. And even if 5.0 ends up following the exact same pattern to the letter, it'll still sell well as if it were a single-player game -- people will come back, buy the expansion, sub for a few months, and then take a break again until 5.5 in prep for 6.0. That itself is a large and valuable market for this game.

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I doubt that SE’s goal is to have players basically treat this MMO like a single-player game, where they purchase an expansion, sub for a month or two, and then stay unsubbed for nearly 2 years. Or purchase an expansion, but only play during free login periods.

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In the meantime, there are still enough people who don't mind the pattern to keep the game afloat.

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It’s been a rare occurrence that I’ve met someone who isn’t fed up with the stale formula for patches and expansions - and they’re usually newer players or people that rarely play. Stale formulas aren’t good for player retention.

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In the end, as much as people complain about the familiar pattern, this is SE's most financially-successful MMORPG by far.

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Eventually all MMOs can be branded as “financially-successful” if they live long enough. That doesn’t mean that the stale formula is okay.

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At this point, it can afford to play it safe until it rides into the sunset, if that's its fate.

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No, it really cannot. Because stale formulas are not good for player retention.