See, this is where I'd say get a little creative, you can still bring it up and offer advice in a constructive way, just don't bring up the parser. First and foremost, don't bring it up in the middle of a fight, that's just gonna stress people out. If people want to improve, they will take what advice they can. But I don't think an official parser or allowing people to bring up parser numbers, is gonna help. Some people don't have the drive to improve or the desire to improve and no amount of tools, restrictions and resources put out to help them improve will make them improve. It's frustrating, I know, it sucks, I know. But there isn't much we can do there. Truly bad players will stay bad players.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonseth07
Not to sound rude and I apologize if anyone takes this personally, but to use an old saying from my days as a Software QA tester. "You can't account for stupidity and laziness."
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04-27-2017, 01:33 AMStarRosie
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04-27-2017, 01:43 AMbardaboo
Add in game, personal parser, and keep the dps shaming a bannable offense as it falls under harassment. It's not hard.
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04-27-2017, 01:54 AMdragonseth07You look at these things like crutches, and while they can be in some cases, my experience in other games is that they are primarily tools that skilled and knowledgeable players use to push their gameplay to even greater heights.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMetsu
Imagine being able to mouse over heal and have it not mess up your GCD. Just think of how much more efficient your play could be. Imagine being able to actually customize your UI to what you wish it could be, instead of working with SE's limitations. -
04-27-2017, 02:04 AMHPDelron
Parsers in general use encourage or at least reinforce toxic behavior. Private groups that want tools to better themselves already have those options and I see no need for any wider adoption than that. Certainly not for any official in-game options.
Anyone who has been in a WoW LFR group and seen the constant, demands to "Kick every DPS under X" or "Kick the healer doing Y" know too well when open parser usage invites. Hell sometimes it's nearly impossible to just play because folks are spamming so many vote-kicks every.single.pull and I just have that many "No" buttons to click.
Even for relatively serious groups Parsers honestly do not offer much utility. Simply looking at number doesn't tell you much. Getting anything substantive requires really dedicated drilling down into the play-by-play details. Only the most dedicated and serious players have anything meaningful to gain from them. Most folks advocating for them just kind of like seeing a number because... numbers and/or bragging rights.
As far as I'm concerned an in-game parser or any general official support for them represents a very-high risk in terms of degradation o the play environment for relatively small gains. High Risk/Low Reward is not a bet I want them taking on this game. -
04-27-2017, 02:08 AMShougunSome bars are set a bit silly but what is wrong with expecting people to contribute? Asking for a baseline contribution is not inherently toxic, I find it very weird that is how this community sees that. Some content requires a specific minimum level of effort and to ask people to put that in is only natural and respectable to each other's time. Although most content that gets that sort of thing is not generic dungeon/easy tier content, so casual people really need not worry about that - just make sure to do more than nothing since a parser would reveal an afk "watching something on another screen" player.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPDelron
It reads like "don't expect anything from me~ I give you what I want".. very anti team to me XD. Sure there will be some people with awful baselines, but you just don't join those groups and if for some reason you find that everyone is setting the baseline too high it might mean the classic "when the whole world is wrong, maybe it's not the world that is wrong".
Parsers also offer a lot of utility, even for casual players. It's a clear reference to your performance and just the basic numbers themselves can be helpful; however, it is fairly easy to drill down in most of the tools offered these days so it doesn't require a math degree and 200,000,000 hours play experience to do.
As for the vote kick spam I didn't experience it that often, and also would note certain content has /a lot/ more people in one vote-kickable group and so it is not comparable to FFXIV in a very fair way (max of 8 in FFXIV, therefore of course the amount of spam is lower.. less people in one group). -
04-27-2017, 02:17 AMHPDelron
I could count the number of times I've seen a parser in WoW used to seriously get people to up their contribution in a constructive way on my fingers If I had two hands amputated. I've seen it exactly 0 times. In public groups people use parsers for bullying or bragging, that's it. They could not even have any other purpose. Getting anything out of parser requires digging down into the details seeing what went right or wrong on a GCD-by-GCD basis, otherwise it's just a glorified SSS. You can't do that in a pug. We already have SSS if you just want to know if you can execute your rotation with some basic competency.
Anyway WoWs LFR is exactly comparable to 24-man raid instances like Void Ark & Dun Scaith. The instance size and role as weekly-casual-loot-source in each game is exactly the same. FF14 raids just offer you more chances to actually screw up. I for one enjoy being able to go 3 pulls without having to close 5 windows because some guy needs to feel like a big man by constantly starting vote kicks and posting recount summaries. -
04-27-2017, 02:20 AMShougunAnecdotal, in which case my experience has been the opposite helping people improve on their own and as a group, it has also been used in my experience to remove people who refused to improve and were doing nothing (afk levels, riding off everyone else) making the experience smoother and less stressful for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPDelron
Patently false. If you're unable to get anything from a parser then I guess that's your issue with the parser, but both statements are false on a scale that includes more than your own issues with parser.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPDelron
Just a thought I had - your issue with the parser's helpfulness may be that your front number is actually good, in which case congratulations lol, but not everyone has the luxury and referencing that front number for a while will actually be enough to be helpful (until they get so good they have to dig deep, but I'd argue that is not the majority).
Except you can vote kick as a whole raid and its 30 members iirc (25-40, depending on content), so it's not the same. You can't vote kick someone else's players in FFXIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPDelron
30 member party > 8 member party (in which there are 3 of, so you get 24 total but they're separated in the system's eyes). Smaller group would logically lead to less vote kick prompts, also less information probably also leads to less votekick prompts. -
04-27-2017, 02:24 AMdragonseth07You can't teach someone 30 hours of gameplay experience in 30 seconds of text. You can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPDelron
If someone is simply not up to snuff for the content, I don't see the problem with saying "You're not good enough. Go improve and try again later." in the form of a kick. -
04-27-2017, 02:33 AMKaethraThis is a lie. Sorry but it is an outright lie. You all need to knock off repeating hearsay as if its fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPDelron
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04-27-2017, 02:38 AMAshua
Not sure why this is brought up. It has caused so many issues on wow I no longer play the game because of the acidic community. It is not worth it and might be a programming nightmare for ps4/pc compat at this juncture.