Possible removal of Classes

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Originally Posted by Aylis

To put it bluntly. Yoshida wanted to dumb the game down to make it popular considering 1.0 in the eyes of making money was a flop. In contrast here is the same fight I did in the last video I linked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQOgtbwZ0-I on the 1.20 update when Yoshida took over and removed all the fun abilities and took away Tanaka's original identity to make FFXIV "mainstream"

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I forgot how fine the music was.

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Originally Posted by Wilan

Customization in games with any seriously demanding content is often times a myth. What usually happens is somebody figures out the "best" kind of customization and everyone has to conform to that (remember how every tank was expected to wear STR gear?). FFXIV 2.0's approach is to give definite tools in your hands and a challenge in front of you, and call it lazy or dumbed down or whatever you will, but this is more fun than anything you could ever do in 1.0.

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"Demanding content" is literally 5 fights that are released several months apart. Most of the playerbase doesn't even bother with them - and even if they did, they could simply change to the "optimal build", this isn't the early 2000s where you had to start your character over because you chose your spells poorly.

If raids were the juicy content of this game I could agree, but they aren't. This amount of streamlining for the sake of such small content is not justified in my opinion.

They really should just cap classes at level 30. Once you level past 30 and get your job crystal, you wouldn't be able to go back to that class. SE's problem with SMN/SCH is less a class/job problem and more that too many skills are allocated to the class, so they share too much. If you cap classes at 30, they'd share much less and allow greater differentiation.

EDIT: Duell and I have the same idea it seems. To me it really seems the most simple change to implement. That keeps the initial flavor of a class/job system. If it were like this, it would be much easier to actually use the class system to have more classes share bases.

In fact, those "shared" role skills they are implementing in 4.0 should have actually been more like class skills for jobs. Tanks for example, didn't need three different classes. They could have been one class, that branched into all three of the current jobs, with the shared role skills being your starting 1-30 abilities. Or heck maybe just have classes for the first 15 levels instead and branch them from there.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

"Demanding content" is literally 5 fights that are released several months apart. Most of the playerbase doesn't even bother with them - and even if they did, they could simply change to the "optimal build", this isn't the early 2000s where you had to start your character over because you chose your spells poorly.

If raids were the juicy content of this game I could agree, but they aren't. This amount of streamlining for the sake of such small content is not justified in my opinion.

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Explain that to the next Tank who says they've removed Provoke from their hotbar because it doesn't fit their idea of Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Wilan

Explain that to the next Tank who says they've removed Provoke from their hotbar because it doesn't fit their idea of Paladin.

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It will always happen something like that, no matter the system/game.

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Originally Posted by Wilan

Explain that to the next Tank who says they've removed Provoke from their hotbar because it doesn't fit their idea of Paladin.

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I'd just votekick them or leave, one idiot being an idiot isn't a massive deal.

Seriously, a tank who won't equip provoke is going to be a rubbish tank regardless of how much or how little freedom you give him. If players need to be coddled that much SE may as well just play the game for us.

Ok my 2 cents...

I played 1.0 for a but I also came from ff XI as well, I'm a firm believer any job you unlock should be levelled from lv 1 not starting at lv 30 or lv 50. Personally there should be starting jobs and to unlock any of the other jobs you need to hit what ever level on your first job to start the quest to unlock any other job. Then once you unlock a job you should be starting it at level 1 not lv 30 and not level 50, that's just being sheer laziness starting a new job at a higher level.

Honestly stormblood may be the last expansion that I'll play because I don't like where the game itself is heading. Don't get me wrong I do enjoy the game for the most part but there various aspects to it I'm disliking one if which would be the new jobs starting at an even higher lv than the hw ones, starting new jobs at higher lv's just simply takes all the fun out of levelling them.

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Originally Posted by Aylis

It might be more easier to show you then explain ^.^ here's a very old video I made from those days that shows roughly how it worked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUR-lPpEbsU Basically nearly every skill for every class was up for grabs as a cross class action. Want to be a mage with tank skills? It could be done, want to be an archer healer? It could be done. Players had 10 cross class abilities they could take at max level and each skill had a set number of allocation points. The more higher level the skill, the more points it costed to put it in your cross class ability bar. When you leveled up, you got a number of points you could use to spend on whatever cross class skill you wanted from all the classes you unlocked.

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This issue with a system like this, and why it was likely abandoned, is you'd have to tailor fights around these potential builds or make it so a healing archer were capable of being the teams' dedicated healer. Otherwise... there would never be any point to bringing an archer who could heal over a conjurer. Having an allotment of cross skills doesn't mean they'll be effective.

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Originally Posted by Aylis

To put it bluntly. Yoshida wanted to dumb the game down to make it popular considering 1.0 in the eyes of making money was a flop. In contrast here is the same fight I did in the last video I linked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQOgtbwZ0-I on the 1.20 update when Yoshida took over and removed all the fun abilities and took away Tanaka's original identity to make FFXIV "mainstream"

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See, I find that battle system incredibly dull, personally. It's slower than even ARR's 2.5 GCD, which is saying something. A better comparison is Ifrit EX 1.0 to its subsequent counterpart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unpWwn00mJs

That... is not an engaging fight.

I find myself divided on this:
- On one side, I'd pretty much take out cross-class since it's not working because the abilities are either rubbish or a must.
- On the other, I deep down wish they could find a way to make cross-class system actually work, since I loved the shit out of that kind of thing back in FFV and I kept loving it in Bravely Default games. Seeing a real functioning cross-class skill would be awesome.

With the cross-class system out (having the mandatory skills as role skills that you get by leveling), classes wouldn't be that much of an issue. You could make it so, finishing the first job quest at level 30 automatically upgrades the class to a job, taking out the Soul Crystal slot and leaving the soul crystals as pure lore.

It'd be pretty much a win-win. You preserve the class lore, give the feeling of progression by upgrading to a job, classes doesn't need further addresing, the overhaul on the lore/system is minimal,....

Regarding the SMN/SCH problem, I think the best solution would be to rework SCH and make it an Extra Job like DRK, AST, etc. replacing all ACN skills and giving SCH a deeper identity (also, leaving more freedom to rework SMN). Changes on lore or quests would barely be needed.

At last, am I the only one who think they should make possible to start as a Rogue? I've always found having to start as another class to become a Rogue a bit silly.

More on Final Fantasy Tactics....

Not only does the Class/Job system show obvious signs of being where they got the idea... but you can see the majority of those systems in play in this game.

Right down to Chocobos that fight for you... there you had the Red, Blue, and Black Chocobos. One breathed Fire, another one had an AoE fireball attack, and one just meleed. I was surprised to see it in this game when I started.

I can clearly see the they pulled the majority of this game and its ideas from FF6, FF Tactics, and FF7. The storyline is remarkably similar to FF6 right down to the Magitech, the Materia usage from FF7 and the facilities used by the Garleans, The class/job system from FF Tactics, Limit Breaks from FF7, a lot of the monsters are from FF6 and 7, Chocobo fighting alongside you and even the Choco Barding from FF Tactics.

Literally if you've played those games... this one is entirely based on nearly all of them. Once you see how the pieces fit togather... it all becomes clear.

The systems are very good ones... but they are designed on games that were a lot smarter than some people are nowadays... and required a tactical mindset... it wasn't some arcade game...