Half-baked Thoughts of a Filthy Casual DRK

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

DRK outside of Delirium(not even that if the Monk is using DK) has no team utility other then more damage skills. If the SoSu buff coming to PvP was for all content in 3.3 and more DA effects on other skills like Salted Earth then DRK would have some team options to play with but right now they don't really have any.

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I've seen you and numerous other people say things along these lines on the forums over the past several weeks, while conveniently leaving Reprisal out.

In efficiently compositioned teams, DRK is usually the de-facto MT (although there really isn't one right now - so even if OT they will still being MTing a significant chunk of the time) and there are no "magic only" fights right now, in fact many of them are highly physical.

Reprisal+Delirium is fantastic utility. That's a Storm's Path and a Dragon Kick. The former of which stacks with its counterpart. Plunge is also much more effective utility than people give credit for, as having a gap closer on a tank is indirectly a raid DPS increase since it eases positioning issues and helps everyone's uptime.

In a fight where the OT literally just pokes the boss and handles a mechanic now and then with no tank swaps? Yeah, an OT DRK could use a boost there, I'll grant you.

But you and everyone else posting save for Violette don't raid and outside of raiding, raid utility doesn't even make that much of a difference one way or another. So its frustrating to see people just discredit it and misjudge something that they honestly don't even understand that well to be honest, nor do you have personal experience with it. Have you been in a savage raid and had personal experience with DRK's utilities benefiting the raid group and seen the effects of your play on your teammates? Cause no amount of casual theorycrafting substitutes for that.

Also, if the PVP buff to Sole Survivor came to PVE, DRK would be the hands down best goddamn tank in the game. A 15s Trick Attack every 2 minutes? Are you insane? RIP WAR/PLD.

Reprisal like shield swipe is only available in MT slot. I'm looking at utility that can be performed regardless of Tank role. No one is arguing that 20 seconds of 10% dmg reduction(30% for PLD/DRK in Tank stance) is really good. And with only 10 seconds of down time as well.

If the SoSu buff came every 2 minutes the cooldown for it would be warranted. And could play with 2 NIN's altering between SoSu, Trick, Trick for one Vulnerability up for at least 10 seconds every minute. As opposed to Clemency and Equil which are more available and on demand and only depend on the user. Right now as it stands as a skill other then the restore if thing dies in 15 seconds it does nothing. Although if you'd rather not blow a Plunge, Abyssal or Unmend on picking up an add you can use SoSu to pick them up with it's 25y(10y larger then the others) range and the fact it establishes some initial enmity to an enemy. Or even a group if they are linked together.

Basically the recurring theme I'm seeing with LD and SS is "I don't like this ability because if I play poorly, it does nothing." Does no one else see how this is completely justified?

With LD there is at least a chance you could do everything right and still be screwed. With Sole Survivor... I'm sorry but if you put that on an add and it wears off before it dies that's 1000% your fault, barring something ridiculous like a bolt of lightning knocking out the power in the homes of all your DPS.

Also why in the hell would you use Sole Survivor like provoke? No wonder you never get any mp/hp from it.

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Originally Posted by Violette

So, you don't understand how Living Dead works?

Explains a lot.

You do not need to be healed to 100% hp.
You need to be healed for your full value of hp.

(it's different).

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True enough I got that wrong, but that's irrelevant to my point that having to heal me to or for 26k or I'll die is a stipulation that doesn't exist for the other tank savers which is why I say it's inferior and why it's more stressful for healers.

Who said I did? It's merely an option available to you if you choose to do so.

You really like making assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

No no. No. I don't enjoy pld as much as drk because I don't care for pld playstyle. Drk is more fun to me as is easier in some ways then pld. I said as you did that drk is an advanced class that does take some effort to play efficiently. I just wish that challenge was not transfered to healers with a skill like LD.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Who said I did? It's merely an option available to you if you choose to do so.

You really like making assumptions.

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Its just mind-boggling that, while criticizing an ability that works perfectly well for what it does once you learn how to time its usage properly, you would suggest using for something that another ability already does (provoke), and for which its intended use would be rendered completely inert.

Its already been said a million times that LD when used properly actually allows a LONGER period of healer DPS before the final burst of heals required to neutralize the effect. Its only when it is used poorly or without proper communication that it fails in comparison to the other tank savers. Most healer complaints I've heard about LD come from - again - miscommunication. The DRK popped LD, didn't say anything, healer didn't catch it (shakey excuse IMO as the buff/debuff has very high priority on your status effects bar) and then the DRK yelled at them. Sticking a regen on the DRK and hitting them with Bene/ED/A pair of Lustrates+Fairy heals is not difficulty. My WHM never misses LD unless she's dead and even when she is, my SCH has gotten me out of it as well in a pinch.

DRK only fails or lives up to people's criticisms of it when they underutilize/don't use at all/poorly use its tools. The people that can play DRK well aren't superhuman genetic mutants, we're people just like you that can learn and make mistakes. Its your choice to play a job that requires a lot of dedication and skill suboptimally and suffer the disappointing consequences, and also your choice to come here and complain about it. I don't think there's a job in the game right now about which people feel so entitled to play poorly, and then place blame elsewhere, while furthermore shirking others' attempts to help them understand how the job is designed and how they could play it better for a more satisfying experience. More than anything it CERTAINLY is not on SE to repair a job that isn't broken so that people unable or unwilling to play it to the best of their ability can feel more comfortable.

Its absolutely more complicated and complex and as has been said before a million times, if that's not for you, one of the other tanks/jobs is probably a better fit. Its strange to call PLD boring and declare DRK is more fun, but then turn around and bemoan the things that make DRK more fun, intricate, and engaging.

Then there's the fact that almost every suggestion made on this thread and others, if they were to come to pass, would make DRK do mid-air 360-donut pole-vaults over/around PLD/WAR in every piece of content in the game forever and ever amen. DRK already has select areas and circumstances where it wrecks/is wrecked by PLD/WAR which is... well, balance. And as much as I wouldn't mind dethroning WAR for a patch or two and giving DRK its due time as "best tank" (which PLD and WAR both have had at varying points in the game's lifespan), it just isn't necessary. PLDs would get even more butthurt, and WARs would just straight-up end the Earth (did you SEE the RAGE when 3.2 happened?)

If you don't use Darkside or Blood Price or Sole Survivor or Abyssal Drain or Dark Arts Dance/Passenger or Living Dead etc. or misuse/mistime any combination of those things how in the world is that the fault of the job's design? Just learn to play the job better. Judging by the suggestions and complaints made, if either of you don't think you have any room for improvement I'm not sure what more to say. I main the job because I love the job and it has never left me wanting.

So are you saying in the current Tank Meta that OT DRK is fine as is?

I agree with the rest of your points but a common complaint is DRK as OT is lacking.

The LD and SoSu complaints for me are mostly a nonissue. I just wish they could be better.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

So are you saying in the current Tank Meta that OT DRK is fine as is?

I agree with the rest of your points but a common complaint is DRK as OT is lacking.

The LD and SoSu complaints for me are mostly a nonissue. I just wish they could be better.

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Given that:

A5S required multiple tank swaps, both tanks taking high damage targets, coordination between the party and didn't care for composition, DRK OT was fine.

A6S requires multiple tank swaps/tanks taking different bosses, which meant there was no true OT. But fight by fight:
Blaster: Hits like a truck but Dark Knight can take it.
Brawler: Magic damage & multiple tank swaps, extra magic defence cd helps with balls.
Swindler: Can adequately tank the boss (like all tanks can). Plunge is a massive gain in moving around when adds spawn.
Vortexer: plunge helps again, mix of magic and physical doesn't advantage or disadvantage either way. All the tank swaps.

A7S has burn phases, but currently is not a DPS race. With coordination and tank swaps during the hearts phases (so your paladin can stun bitch if required), drks still have the burst dps for jails, gap closers after moving out for uptime, delirium if no monk and LD If you want to DPS for a while. Living dead> hallowed is quite a bit of hands off time. This is possibly also the WEAKEST DRK ot fight, due to the only real checks being DPS checks and war out doing DRK in that area. Same if it were a paladin.

A8S is very physical heavy, but the tank busters are splitable.... So yeah. LD is the easiest way to deal with adds phase mines, delirium utility is insanely strong. Given its sustained DPS isn't too bad and has the gap closer, it can still function well. But when your yardstick is the best/second best class in the game, everything will look somewhat bad.

DRK OT itself isn't lacking all that much, because 10% damage down 100% of the time will trump all utility. Delirium is better than what Paladin can provide and a gap closer is better than knock back resistance in nearly every case. That is not to say cover/dv/clemency are worthless (except clemency in raid situations), just that divine veil provides more magic mitigation that deli, for a short time and cover is only useful in A7s in some spots.


The class might have been built with the main tanking spot in mind, but that doesn't exist in some fights. It has precise utility, but when used properly will be almost as effective as warriors (minus the fell leave utility).

@Syzzle: So, to summarize, you think the class is fine just the way it is. No need for soapboxing. And the only skill I "bemoan" is LD. It's my understanding that this thread was created to discuss ideas for improvement for drk. If you're not here for that then you're just here to badmouth other players ideas?

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

@Syzzle: So, to summarize, you think the class is fine just the way it is. No need for soapboxing. And the only skill I "bemoan" is LD. It's my understanding that this thread was created to discuss ideas for improvement for drk. If you're not here for that then you're just here to badmouth other players ideas?

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Ideas exist to be critiqued, assessed, discussed and then proceeded with.

If your idea cannot be opposed because that's "badmouthing", then the idea is not worth putting forward.

I put forward the idea of a 2.35gcd DRK breakpoint as better than 2.44. I'm still working on my counter data, but good ideas and critiques were bought up supporting the 2.44 over 2.35. But I didn't whine and dodge when my idea was critiqued, I accepted the data provided and moved on to the next step.

When you improve something, there needs to be a reason.

"Pld has the worst enmity compared to DRK/war". Got fixed in 3.2
"Summoner has too much damage" got thunder removed as a cross class.
"Noct sect is trash"....still on going.

But "living dead forces me to rely on my healers"? If you're doing casual content (calling sephi ex casual content too), you don't need living dead. If you're doing raid content, you will rely on your healers anyway.

So what's the damn problem?