FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Will Red Mage be just like astrologian? A fusion between SMN & Blm.

Maybe Redmage will be the first mind based dps? Bare with me. If Redmages physical damage was modified by mind you could give Redmage Conjurer as a cross class for Cleric's Stance. Cleric stance up for nukes and Cleric stance down for weaponskills and on-timer heals/refresh/etc.

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Originally Posted by Averax

With the history of the job, I can see it working out effectively as a healer. They're supposed to be a fusion of White Mage and Black mage with some support spells mixed in, and since healers DPSing is sort of a staple, making them healers would cover both of those bases.. So they'll probably end up like astrologian, but with different kinds of support so that the AST doesn't feel obsolete.

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I'm expecting the same, going to be the SCH equivalent with great DPS capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Destous

Red Mage makes no sense as a healer.

In every FF title that had a Red Mage, they were never very good at being a dedicated healer. They were always most proficient as a damage dealer that could abuse enemies with elemental weaknesses, and fall back on basic attacks when they couldn't.

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Final Fantasy I Red was extremely strong at healing and damaging, mostly like FFXIV healers, who can also put up some good DPS numbers.
Final Fantasy III Red Mage is kinda weak, but still a mage based class.
Final Fantasy V Red Mage is THE MAGE because of Doublecast, the signature move of the class since then. They can put up more HPS than any of the healers (excluding Chemist) with it.

I think Red Mage makes no sense as melee. He's not a fencer, after all.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

I think Red Mage makes no sense as melee. He's not a fencer, after all.

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TBH i initially saw the class as just a mage that uses both White Magic and Black Magic, then i noticed the rapier.

Still I think this might be like SMN, a case of the majority claming that a certain iteration is the definite iteration (though I think it is, also like SMN, XI's version in that case)

As for RDM tank, that does make a little sense but I feel like that would nee the invention of a new armor class ala MNK/NIN, due to a tank needing VIT.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Final Fantasy I Red was extremely strong at healing and damaging, mostly like FFXIV healers, who can also put up some good DPS numbers.

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You have to remember that console FFs are an entirely different ballgame from balance needed for an MMO. A RDM in FFI basically meant a second healer and Temper source for your ninja/master/knight.

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Final Fantasy III Red Mage is kinda weak, but still a mage based class.

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Not really. RDM in FFIII was basically a middle road hybrid, hence why it has access to melee weapons and a selection of black and white magic. Its weakness came from the fact it could excel at nothing by design and its trades were segregated from each other mechanically (this last bit is VERY important, by the way).

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Final Fantasy V Red Mage is THE MAGE because of Doublecast, the signature move of the class since then.

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Doublecast is a singular gimmick and not something you can build a class around. It'd possible to grab the concept of being able to do something two times in quick succession but it'd need to be part of something much bigger. Much like how Cover is just a small fragment of PLD gameplay instead of the thing that you design the entire job around.

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I think Red Mage makes no sense as melee. He's not a fencer, after all.

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Red Mages have been obviously based on the concept of spellswords (themselves hybrids that are part caster and part fighter). Granted, this is not an easy thing to portray in turn-based RPGs, but the fact that it can equip melee weapons and heavier armor than other mage classes makes it pretty clear. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking of RDM as a replacement/backup healer because turn-based combat sort of forces you to make use of what is most efficient.

Then came FFXI (before it shoehorned RDM into the role of refresh-bitch), which took the steps needed to give RDM something to build themselves on: Enspells. You're a guy that hits for less than the musclehead warrior, knows magic that's weaker than the frail black mage, but you make up for both deficiencies by combining what you know into something bigger. Mechanically, enspells were a great step for RDM because it resolved a glaring part of RDM's design from the console FFs (the "trades" being completely separate from each other). Turn-based RPGs aren't good for a hybrid that combines its trades to stand toe-to-toe with its enemies and competition, but MMO combat is the perfect place for it.

With this said, the rest easily falls into place. Healing/tanking doesn't suit RDM, but you need to assign the job a role because this is (thankfully) a trinity-based MMO. If healing/tanking are out of the question, that leaves DPS. The job could work as a dedicated caster, but you might as well be called Sage instead of Red Mage at that point. So the only real option would be a front-line fighter with spells for extra damage/utility. Procs that allow spells to be seamlessly weaved into a damage rotation, with the option to consume said procs to throw out heals. Utility abilities/spells to top things off (provided they're not super crucial to getting a clear). The result is a job that hits things and casts spells, easily summed up as Red Mage.

Under the current system I think I would like to see RDM end up being a Melee (Physical/Magic) DPS with support like the two ranged classes. I think they could focus on sword strikes and quick casting spells in opener and finisher combos letting you mix and match the two more than the combos other classes have now. Giving them access to a few buff spells and cross class with Conjure would be good. I started playing once I heard this class was possibly coming; though I have started to like Tanking so if it was to fill a tank role I wouldn't have too much of an issue with that either.

Though how I would like to really see the RDM would require a full system overhaul, letting you pick a role and having skills and traits change based on that. Extending this to the other Classes and jobs would be good as well but would likely play havoc with the queuing.

Well , i have to say i really like the idea of a melee int type of class.
I am not sure what would best be in kind of balance, but in the end it does not even need to be called redmage. Since redmage is really some jack of all trades that makes the problems at this point of the design, hence it is complicated to fit it in ffiv's philosophy of jobs and stuff. In my opinion it can also just be some spellblade kind of class.

I for my self would really like to see a design approach for it like in the video from ff vii crisis core, the cutscene in which Genesis fights a training match with Sephiroth and Angeal.
Buffing your weapon with some cool animation and wielding some rapier kind of sword in one hand and using the other one to cast magic.
I think taking on this approach would open up for a lot of interesting kinds of skills and other stuff which is not bound to the redmages classic stuff but maybe fitting for the place to fit concerning the role quite more.
Because the role to which is definitely missing is a melee int type after all.

All things considered, I think taking a non-conventional route for RDM would be most fulfilling for the classes. Why play 'homage' games constantly when you can make something unique and interesting that keeps some basic concepts but with a different route?

Some aspects you can utilize to pull off a RDM tank:

-En(spell) and (spell) Spikes: Give the RDM the ability to cast such spells on not only themselves but on party members that then siphons the damage of said spells right to the RDM means the party is part of the RDM's hate generation mechanic.

-(multi)cast and/or Chain-spell: pretty basic. Just like other classes have combos and procs but perhaps extend their instant-cast to a multitude of spells and traps.

-Fencer: drawing a bit from the tactics series, give them an aspect of battlefield tactician that utilizes traps that can then affect emnity, heal allies, strong debilitating or controlling effects or simply cast WHM/BLM effects when triggered. Can also draw on their skills such as Nighthawk, Swallowtail and Checkmate. As for traps, these could be triggered when a foe first triggers (spell)spike effects from an ally you cast the trap on.

I can see RDM being sold as any role but tbh Tank makes most sense given no other role can heal,dps, and melee except tanks. Their dps stance could be "Sword Spell" which allows you to use say Enthunder which adds thunder to your auto attacks and makes their whatever oGCD sword hit add Stun, Enfire can do the same but change it from stun to "DoT" etc. Their tank stance could be Phalanx and given a spell like Blaze Spikes which is like Vengeance and reduces damage taken. They'd get self heals too like Souleater and Siphon Strike but it would he Draining Blade, and Aspir Blade like RDM had in FF Dimensions.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I can see RDM being sold as any role but tbh Tank makes most sense given no other role can heal,dps, and melee except tanks. Their dps stance could be "Sword Spell" which allows you to use say Enthunder which adds thunder to your auto attacks and makes their whatever oGCD sword hit add Stun, Enfire can do the same but change it from stun to "DoT" etc. Their tank stance could be Phalanx and given a spell like Blaze Spikes which is like Vengeance and reduces damage taken. They'd get self heals too like Souleater and Siphon Strike but it would he Draining Blade, and Aspir Blade like RDM had in FF Dimensions.

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http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/S...inal_Fantasy_V)

Ill just...leave this here...

I absolutely love the idea of a Mystic Knight tank

but, I also want to see Red Mage as a playable job as well. I really do not see why we cant have both

What I think a lot of 11 players are doing is confusing the fact that that wasnt red mage at all until they smashed a heavy armored spell blades abilities onto the job so it too could tank. Mystic Knight had everything there as far as this melee spell blade tank idea for rdm is concerned, it wouldnt even be hard for them to implement, wore knight heavy armor and was known to reflect magic as one of its final passives, again in ff5 redmage was there, and maybe doublecast isnt enough to warrant a new job, but was "jump" or "cover" or even "Souleater"? Dont get me wrong theyll do RDM however they want, i just feel like they have other options when it comes to making it a heavy armor spell blade class, like implement a job that already does that and doing something else for a job known to melee, cast from the back, support, wear medium armor and equip melee weapons.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I absolutely love the idea of a Mystic Knight tank

but, I also want to see Red Mage as a playable job as well. I really do not see why we cant have both

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Do you feel that the Mystic Knight (or Rune Fencer or what have you) would fill an adequate niche in the game? Are there no avenues within the game currently that *might* fill its niche?

Perhaps in the future, if proper advancements or specializations are available for current playstyles, maybe a current job could specialize (or generalize, as the case may be) to fulfill the Mystic Knight's role (funnily enough, I actually think if the game ever advances to include generalized versions of various jobs, perhaps Black Mage could incorporate aspects of the Mystic Knight insofar the casting of spells on allies' weapons).

Also, do you feel the flavor of Red Mage is distinct enough to implement usefully into the game? Personally, just being a blend of white and black has always been bland to me and the use of a sword, while cool is plainly unsupported. Casting spells quickly isn't unique to Red Mage, especially with the rather slow pace of FFXIV. There are aspects within the game built to bypass cast times. To make Red Mage truly its own job wholly unique from White and Black, I think more drastic modifications to RDM is required.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

What I think a lot of 11 players are doing is confusing the fact that that wasnt red mage at all until they smashed a heavy armored spell blades abilities onto the job so it too could tank. Mystic Knight had everything there as far as this melee spell blade tank idea for rdm is concerned, it wouldnt even be hard for them to implement, wore knight heavy armor and was known to reflect magic as one of its final passives, again in ff5 redmage was there, and maybe doublecast isnt enough to warrant a new job, but was "jump" or "cover" or even "Souleater"? Dont get me wrong theyll do RDM however they want, i just feel like they have other options when it comes to making it a heavy armor spell blade class, like implement a job that already does that and doing something else for a job known to melee, cast from the back, support, wear medium armor and equip melee weapons.

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As I mentioned above, it's not so much "confusing" what does and doesn't make a RDM, but looking to the *concept* of RDM and capturing its *style* rather than use it as a template to re-establish the job of old. Perhaps it's simply understood that what RDM *was* wasn't interesting in the new context of this game. Or that which makes RDM unique isn't applicable in this game (a jack-of-all-trades fits in a harsh trinity game how? either it underperforms on all fronts, underperforms isn most front except one which then is the main focus while other fronts are ignored, or it overperforms on multiple fronts).

Again, personally, I'd just take the concept of a spell-casting swordsman, blend it with aspects of the Rune Fencer (making it a tank) as well as the basic Fencer. Then from there, take the job in a wholly unique direction. I'd envision a RDM in FFXIV casting spell spikes on itself to deal damage and dull the effects or certain elements. It would also cast spell spikes on allies as avenues of setting traps that, when triggered, inhibit the foe, control the foe while protecting allies as well as draw massive aggro to the RDM. The RDM could also cast En-spells on themselves to transform their physical damage skills into certain elements (with differing effects) as well as adding magical damage to their auto-attack. The RDM would also be able to cast En-spells on allies which the RDM would be able to utilize with certain skills to trigger chain spells, so casting the same En-spell but on foes would trigger varying intensities of elemental spells at the cost of mp. Said En-spells cast on allies would also siphon hate toward the RDM. On top of all that, their Fencer skills would have varying effects once traps are triggered and chain spells cast, relying less on physical combos like standard DPS or tanks but instead focusing on setting up and utilizing the attack patterns of foes.