Healers tanking low level dungeons

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Originally Posted by Whiston

To be perfectly fair, the pair of you are doing exactly the same thing.

Here's the fact of the matter.

Some people run into a low level dungeon with the intent to speed run it like WP circa 2.1 bolting ahead and pulling everything that moves and completely ignoring a tanks pleas for help.

On the other hand, you may be content to run at any given pace and help a tank out, who then proceeds to mindlessly spam fracture on a single target with no response to your communication attempts at all. Your potential help is just further wasted time, it's a lost cause.

I'm sure everyone here is sensible enough to realize the middle ground is where 95% of runs go.

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Except, we are not doing the same thing. I will however say you and he are doing the same thing. I made a valid point to try. The two of you come up with the "bad what if" scenarios. It's like the two of you are trying to justify that ignoring helping/teaching a new/bad tank a thing or two to strengthen the party and the future tank in general is a bad thing, so you'd rather assume the worse and in turn assume someone else's role and set bad examples.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Hot Air

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Like ThirdChild said, you are pretty much trying to justify to yourself that what you did was right, and you were not. You only made the situation worse, by not even trying to better the player for future instances, but you'd be the first person to cry if you met this tank in a duty you'd need him in, and then you'd flame him for being a bad tank. I am 150% positive you wouldn't even think back on this thread or your earlier run in with said tank and think "Damn I should have given him pointers, and maybe I would not have this problem now" But by then it will be too late, as the damage has already been done and because the tank will pretty much be set in his way that what he was doing was right. And Further I BET you would not even help him in that aspect but just leave the duty and blame the tank for the failure...

Again, you set a bad example and there is no way in hell you can justify that you did the right thing in that scenario we've been discussing. You were showboating at best. End Of. Story.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity? That's like obese people saying they are perfectly healthy. You always put down better players instead of becoming inspired with new possibilities.

A healer who is moving forward and pulling more is teaching the new and/or bad tank that he should be pulling at a higher pace since the party is obviously capable of it, without having to speak a single word in chat.

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My reply to this is exactly what RyuDragnier said I will quote it again in case you missed Ellatrix...

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

No, he's being a bad example by doing that. A healer who is explaining things to the tank, how bosses work, which moves and combos work better for aggro gain, is teaching the tank well. One who is just running ahead is being, pardon my french, a dumbass, and needs to stop entering lower level dungeons if they want dungeons to go faster.

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Werd.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Ellatrix, do you know who you remind me of? I can't recall the name, but do you remember the "bad" guy of the Lancer quests? The one who's idea of being a true Lancer was to be unwavering in the face of danger, but was really just reckless. I mean no disrespect by that, and I certainly do acknowledge your ability. But this isn't a matter of doing something because you can, to help teach another. This was purely "you're taking too long, step aside."

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LOL you are SO right!

Foulques was his name. And yes I think we should start a petition thread and request SE to change his name and sex to reflect Ellatrix. She's got Foulques beat by a whole galaxy and makes him look like a good guy.

It's only happened to me once when my toon was 17 on marauder. Stupid healer kept complaining about me pulling too slowly, kept insisting I gather up more and more, which I kept ignoring, until he freaked out and took over (failing miserably.)

The issue is that if my marauder is a true level 17 in bronze armor (no greens), I literally can't gather three groups of mobs at once. I don't care how high the healer's item level is, I'll be dead within a global cooldown. Lazy high level healers (Or more precisely, lazy high level dps players who happened to level a healing job on the side) who think everyone should be able to zoom along according to their demanding schedules can go eat a fork. It's nothing new though. Healing's such a clutch role that it's always attracted a sizeable amount of dumb in any number of games.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

It's only happened to me once when my toon was 17 on marauder. Stupid healer kept complaining about me pulling too slowly, kept insisting I gather up more and more, which I kept ignoring, until he freaked out and took over (failing miserably.)

The issue is that if my marauder is a true level 17 in bronze armor (no greens), I literally can't gather three groups of mobs at once. I don't care how high the healer's item level is, I'll be dead within a global cooldown. Lazy high level healers (Or more precisely, lazy high level dps players who happened to level a healing job on the side) who think everyone should be able to zoom along according to their demanding schedules can go eat a fork. It's nothing new though. Healing's such a clutch role that it's always attracted a sizeable amount of dumb in any number of games.

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You make a very good point with recognizing your gear and what you can handle. And you made the right call IMO. Some healers/DPS need a lesson the hard way (Death), when trying to assume the tanks role. Dunno if I agree with healing being a clutch as much as it is a necessity in this game, but you're entitled to your own opinion on the matter and it cannot be argued with...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Like ThirdChild said, you are pretty much trying to justify to yourself that what you did was right, and you were not. You only made the situation worse, by not even trying to better the player for future instances, but you'd be the first person to cry if you met this tank in a duty you'd need him in, and then you'd flame him for being a bad tank, and I am 150% positive you wouldn't even think back on this thread or your earlier run in with said tank and think "Damn I should have given him pointers, and maybe I would not have this problem now" But by then it will be too late because the tank is set in his way that what he was doing was right.

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I never said he was a bad tank, just that he was doing nothing for long periods of time between pulls, and seemed lost the few times he was leading us through the dungeon. I've partied with several horrible tanks in higher level dungeons, and have yet to cry or flame them. If anything, it makes the dungeon a little more than the normal zombie grind. The duty finder is not a place where harassing other players about their playstyle should be welcomed. Feel free to do that in a static or FC/linkshell party, but not when it's 4 strangers together for 15-30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I never said he was a bad tank, just that he was doing nothing for long periods of time between pulls, and seemed lost the few times he was leading us through the dungeon. I've partied with several horrible tanks in higher level dungeons, and have yet to cry or flame them. If anything, it makes the dungeon a little more than the normal zombie grind. The duty finder is not a place where harassing other players about their playstyle should be welcomed. Feel free to do that in a static or FC/linkshell party, but not when it's 4 strangers together for 15-30 minutes.

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Stouter, I'm really done with going back and forth with you and how you nitpick at things, ignoring the bigger picture. This will most likely be my last reply to you, following a picture that really defines our situation, but I will say this first: Lower level dungeons are EXACTLY the place and time to teach a new tank. Sure it's a playground to seasoned players, but it's also a great way to train a tank on the basics and intermediate mechanics of tanking and holding hate. It all changes at Brayflox and on...

But here is the picture I wish to leave that references everything you and I have been discussing and what you've learned thus far. Enjoy.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3fhg3cbGI1qkxjf4.jpg

Simply kick the bad healer from group, if every group kicks them for acting like a tank they will not be speed running anything but duty finder looking for a group that won't kick them for being a tool.
If your in Tam Tara with a new player who never played a mmo or a tank before and we all know tanks have low agro control at those low lvl's , especially vs high geared players, then the real bad player is the healer for not controlling their agro and helping to teach the tank and possibly the group how to work together and that it's the tanks job to get hold and maintain agro and it's the group's job to watch and control their agro . I have a ilvl 111 whm and I can control my agro in low lvl dungeons even with a new tank I will very rarely get agro .
It's just bad players who think speed = skill.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

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Again, flame and say I'm not reading what you say, which is a description of yourself. That's called projection. You declare how the game must be played, and I disagree with you. You skip that part, and just go back to flaming.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Except, we are not doing the same thing. I will however say you and he are doing the same thing. I made a valid point to try. The two of you come up with the "bad what if" scenarios. It's like the two of you are trying to justify that ignoring helping/teaching a new/bad tank a thing or two to strengthen the party and the future tank in general is a bad thing, so you'd rather assume the worse and in turn assume someone else's role and set bad examples.

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I feel you are experiencing some reading comprehension issues. Can you please point out when I stated I instantly march on, disregarding a tanks communications?
There is helping a tank out, and then there's talking to a wall. I refuse to comply with the latter.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I used to work on aircraft in the military. I had trouble with ground refueling operations in the beginning. I was the worst. As much as one NCO wanted to push me aside and do it so that we'd be done faster, another who became one of my greatest teachers did something both worse and better: He stuck me on nothing but refuels for 2 solid weeks. That. SUCKED. But I became a bloody guru at it. I was training new people on it my final day. . . Had I been pushed aside way back when, what would I have learned?

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This is very commendable. I would never disregard someone who showed as much determination and willingness as this.
Unfortunately, this is far from the norm. The more realistic situation these days, is someone placed into that position would sit on a bench, playing with their iPhone and waiting for the day to be over.
There is a drastic difference between somebody willing to learn and someone content to do things their way, at a snails pace, disregarding the needs of the party.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

I feel I am experiencing some reading comprehension issues. Can you please point out when I stated I instantly march on, disregarding a tanks communications?
There is helping a tank out, and then there's talking to a wall. I refuse to comply with the latter.

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There, fixt that for ya...

If you look a little closer, you'll see that I was generalizing both you and Stouter in the same sentence. I never said JUST you...

Nice try though. But hey If the shoe fits, feel free to lace that bitch up and wear it :)

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Again, we\\\\\\'re looking at a matter of just because you can doesn\\\\\\'t mean you should. I can tank as a Bard. I could probably tank as anything.

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Just because i can probs means its a bad practice. But once again, if "no one " is "dead" then it simply means "no one is dead".
Tanks should know how to tank basic mobs before they even get to sastasha & know when its impossible to get back emnity. I see tanks trying to flash spam my cures till they go oom. It happened a lot that i started to think lol really now.
My cures r going to myself vs going to tank = so why treat it different?

Tanking as a bard has almost no sustain. You mean i\\\\\\'m going to "kite" and "move around so i won\\\\\\'t die" kind of tanking.