What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Britha

Probably a variation on "Venat bad!" since it's from that camp of people we've seen all over story discussion since Endwalker came out.

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You mad that not everyone loves someone who committed textbook genocide?

Well, you heard it here folks. Apparently not liking a character for very valid reasons means you're in a camp of evil boogiemen.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The only reason they even consider these analyses necessary is because the community at large has been shouting down certain negative interpretations of characters despite there being ample basis for such. It's gotten ridiculous to a point of people citing misogny as one of the only reasons you could dislike Venat.

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This is honestly a big issue for a lot of discussion about not only around female characters, but just in general. Don't like Venat? You're a misogynist. Don't like Hermes? You don't understand depression. Don't like the story? You must not have read it. It's tiring, and it's a big reason (amongst others) why I've just stopped wanting serious and genuine discussions with certain people. Whenever I see someone do this, it's a big red flag to not seek out common ground or rational discussion with that person as doing so is probably impossible.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Don't like Hermes? You don't understand depression.

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This one I can't figure out. Of all the things to use as a defense, why this? By doing so, they are essentially insinuating that depression inherently puts you on course to become a monster. Last I checked, nobody I know with depression has decided they want to go burn down a city block for no reason other than finding the people living there to be hard to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

This one I can't figure out. Of all the things to use as a defense, why this? By doing so, they are essentially insinuating that depression inherently puts you on course to become a monster. Last I checked, nobody I know with depression has decided they want to go burn down a city block for no reason other than finding the people living there to be hard to deal with.

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This probably isn't the most charitable interpretation but I imagine it's because it's the easiest response and it comes out as a knee-jerk reaction to defend Hermes and the game in general, and that the Hermes defenders don't actually think about what they're saying beyond a surface level. It also allows them to shut down any criticism without actually arguing against the criticism itself, instead attacking the critic directly.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's gotten ridiculous to a point of people citing misogny as one of the only reasons you could dislike Venat.

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Venat is badly written and the implications of the story surrounding her have been lost to the writers.

People criticize Venat in order to make a point of what is *actually* happening in the story: The reason why people say Venat is genocidal is to in turn expose the writing as bad, because that's *obviously* not what they wanted to convey, but they did it anyway by implication.

However people now for some reason think that the goal of the writing team *should* have been to have Venat have been a villain all along.

Hating Venat seems to have gone from a proxy for hating the writing to an end in and of itself. Which is pretty weird. Accusations of misogyny naturally follow, equally as weird.

I believe there's more to it than that though.

I believe that people hate Venat out of spite against players who just mindlessly enjoy the story. Because to them, the writers aren't the main issue, it's other players, who enjoy the story and therefore in their mind implicitly encourage garbage. Your mommy burns in hell for her sins. I forgot that I actually wanted to argue about the writing.

This my interpretation is obviously also an insane take, but I quite enjoy it!

I think Endwalker is majorly flawed, but the blame is with the writers, not the playerbase and not with my own tastes. I am certain that a story that I would personally enjoy would *also* be enjoyed by the majority of players. And I think they would enjoy it even more.

Even if we assume her intentions and convictions were altruistic, the action taken as a result of those convictions should not, under any circumstances, be portrayed as heroic. Whether the character suffered as a result of those actions is also largely irrelevant, given the sheer scope of the crime committed. In this instance, even had the writers successfully conveyed what they intended, I don't think I would be onboard. There is never a justifiable reason for robbing people of their future.

Choosing not to share the information she had on Discount Lunatic Pandora is already a fairly egregious action unto itself. Adding the sundering to that, well.. You can probably see why I'm not the biggest fan of how things are handled. I don't really have a problem with the Venat character itself, only the way the narrative continuously tries to frame the numerous awful things she did as being "for the good of all." The Scions and their allies could at least have had a WTF moment when faced with the truth, but we didn't even get that. The scant few people in the know just let it slide.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Even if we assume her intentions and convictions were altruistic, the action taken as a result of those convictions should not, under any circumstances, be portrayed as heroic. Whether the character suffered as a result of those actions is also largely irrelevant, given the sheer scope of the crime committed. In this instance, even had the writers successfully conveyed what they intended, I don't think I would be onboard. There is never a justifiable reason for robbing people of their future.

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There is, if it's the only way to save the world from certain doom.

And that should have never been the story in the first place.

I'm talking about fundamental pillars of Endwalker's story that should have never been written the way they were.

That includes the timeloop and the introduction of Dynamis in the way that it was.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

There is, if it's the only way to save the world from certain doom.

And that should have never been the story in the first place.

I'm talking about fundamental pillars of Endwalker's story that should have never been written the way they were.

That includes the timeloop and the introduction of Dynamis in the way that it was.

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Had the doom been certain, you might've had a point. ....But it wasn't. The narrative shows us the ancients actually were capable of interacting with Dynamis, it shows us they were on the cusp of fully realized space travel, and it even shows us that Zodiark would've been capable of shielding the world from the end song for a vastly longer time, had he not been destroyed. Showing us all these things kinda torpedoed the crap out of the idea the ancients were helpless. It made it seem a lot like Venat withholding all that information probably contributed heavily to things getting as bad as they did. To make matters worse, we're also shown Emet-Selch and others doing pretty much whatever they want instead of serving only Zodiark/their people, up to and including the former trying to abandon the plan entirely and just live in the sundered world. Kinda destroyed the idea the ancients were completely lost to tempering.

To the rest of what you're saying, I agree with you. Several things were simply misconstrued and mishandled, and it didn't really begin with Endwalker. If you look back at the final patch of Shadowbringers, you'll notice the sudden shift toward jank.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Had the doom been certain, you might've had a point. ....But it wasn't. The narrative shows us that ancients actually are capable of interacting with Dynamis, it shows us they were on the cusp of fully realized space travel, and it even shows us that Zodiark would've been capable of shielding the world from the end song for a vastly longer time, had he not been destroyed. Showing us all these things kinda torpedoed the crap out of the idea the ancients were helpless. It made it seem a lot like Venat withholding all that information probably contributed heavily to things getting as bad as they did.

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Yes, you interpret the story and show where its holes lie, that's what I'm talking about.

You think about this narrative and world more than the writers themselves! Their intention was clearly that the reasons that Venat gives as to why she needs to be secretive and then later the Dynamis bs are sound.

I wonder how people would feel about Venat if she were physically ugly.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

I believe that people hate Venat out of spite against players who just mindlessly enjoy the story. Because to them, the writers aren't the main issue, it's other players, who enjoy the story and therefore in their mind implicitly encourage garbage. Your mommy burns in hell for her sins. I forgot that I actually wanted to argue about the writing.

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This is good point. Chara who do not hate the Venar can support guild point by hate the Venar. It is the revenge against all the forum paladin who is dare enjoy the story. Now forum paladin can not enjoy forum and guild will win.