Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I dunno, I see a fedora. Regardless, feel free to present data that backs your point.

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Nice strawman er fedoraman. Data. I tanked and healed in dungeons with zero, nada, none, goose egg, zilch ..... toxicity. That's my experience. Not your experience? Oh well. I can think of a number. Number one comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Yeah and you offered nothing of substance aside calling the OP cringe just because they disagreed with you, so I'm not sure you have any room to cringe.

If that culture was not real or not a problem, this thread wouldn't be 75 pages long and going, there wouldn't be that 3.1k pages thread or a whole sub dedicated to DF horrors.

And ironically posts like "wow I never see it, must be fake" or "it's just a game" are some of the things OP calls out. Look at your healer's castbar every once in a while. It's very easy to tell when someone is half-assing their job, and it does affect everyone in the party in all scenarios.

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Pot kettle. I didn't call OP cringe. Clarified it for you. I'm the one cringing. You're on me because I disagree with OP.

I didn't call OP fake. Just stated my experience. His experience not my experience? I can see that for sure.

I've spent enough energy on this post. I'm off to do Housing Extreme and send some positive waves to Soken.

LUL am I the only that that cringes a tad when people say things like sending positives waves / vibes / energy to someone? Joking aside people are right no one persons experience will be the same, all we have to really go by often is our own personal experience. Which is cool, best of luck getting that house.

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Originally Posted by Mykll

Go into forum Settings (top right corner), then on the left, under My Settings, click General Settings. Change Number of Posts to Show Per Page. So I always find it amusing when someone states the number of pages, when there are 5 different settings on the number of posts per page. So, yes, for me, 19 pages.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...80/unknown.png


Edit: And the second reason why I made that first post (*cough*) is because it fits into the overall thread. You see 75. Someone else can say "You are crazy and exaggerating! There are only 19!" Two people see two different things. But I didn't want to draw that parallel in the first post outright, thus the little cough instead of a picture drawing it out.

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We both see either ~750 or ~31k posts though depending of the thread, regardless of how they are presented, about the topic and the subreddit still exists.

Though I do agree that depending of the person and/or the job they are playing, they might see things differently.

As an AST main, it's absolutely critical for me to observe what everyone is up to, and very aware of how people are handling their rotation and mechanics, or how my cohealer heals, DF is nothing short of cursed a majority of the time.
And I don't really blame "underperformers" as much as I blame the lack of proper in-game tutoring and the coddling from the community when for example I tell a WHM that they should use holy during pulls because it's the single best mitigation tool in the game and it's fun, but someone chimes in and say "they're fine, no one died". At least, until said underperformer gets aggressive, because this is a multiplayer game.

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Originally Posted by CobraChicken

Nice strawman er fedoraman. Data. I tanked and healed in dungeons with zero, nada, none, goose egg, zilch ..... toxicity. That's my experience. Not your experience? Oh well. I can think of a number. Number one comes to mind.

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Okay, well I've tanked, healed and dps'd dungeons, 8 mans, 24 mans, Bozja and DR. Even PvP. And in 50% of instances I find one or more players severely wanting. Furthermore, like I said we have data we just can't discuss it but it is easily accessible to have a looksie. I would suggest you do so.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

We have data that supports my point, but due to ToS we can't really discuss it.

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Just because people perform at different levels doesn't make a run bad.

Someone could be new and performing badly, but accepting criticism and getting better each time. I'd call that a good run.

A group of top tier players could be arguing over strategy and getting multiple party members killed by trying to force their strategy. I'd call that a bad run.

Your data would call both of those runs bad.

Data is just numbers and facts. Given the nature of the tool, it will never have enough information to really tell the why's of things. It can't tell you if the poor performance was due to laziness, bad habits due to bad teachers in the past, ignorance due to be new, or other issues.

Given that no one else has come in claiming 50% of their runs are bad you are either:

1. Knowingly exaggerating for effect
2. Unknowingly exaggerating due to misremembering the total of bad vs neutral vs good runs - totally possible due to human memory

I'm choosing to believe you are under #2 and don't want admit that maybe your memory is faulty. Because I'd feel that anyone under #1 would have come clean by now on the exaggeration just to get people moving towards discussing the possible solutions to the problem.

My question is this:

Why are you so fixated on getting everyone to believe that so many players are bad rather than trying to get players focused on discussing possible solutions to reduce the number of bad players?

Because even I, who hasn't had anywhere near 50% bad runs, would agree that the game could do more to encourage players to learn their class and role. To increase the skill level of the average player.

Well let's speak in "hypotheticals" here to illustrate my point. Is it acceptable for a single dps player to be contributing 30-40% of overall damage in any given 8 man fight? Or a tank to be the highest damage player in an 8 man or dungeon? These things are the norm in DF.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Well let's speak in "hypotheticals" here to illustrate my point. Is it acceptable for a single dps player to be contributing 30-40% of overall damage in any given 8 man fight? Or a tank to be the highest damage player in an 8 man or dungeon? These things are the norm in DF.

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Probably an unpopular opinion, but to me it's not an issue as long as we still win.


I mean yeah I probably could talk to them about it or try to get them kicked, but a) I can't see these numbers anyway (not gonna install unofficial addons) and b) I'm not up for a potential drama that it may cause, so I just stay silent, shrug it off and move on.

Anyone else feel there are people screen licking way too much?? :D

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

Just because people perform at different levels doesn't make a run bad.

Someone could be new and performing badly, but accepting criticism and getting better each time. I'd call that a good run.

A group of top tier players could be arguing over strategy and getting multiple party members killed by trying to force their strategy. I'd call that a bad run.

Your data would call both of those runs bad.

Data is just numbers and facts. Given the nature of the tool, it will never have enough information to really tell the why's of things. It can't tell you if the poor performance was due to laziness, bad habits due to bad teachers in the past, ignorance due to be new, or other issues.

Given that no one else has come in claiming 50% of their runs are bad you are either:

1. Knowingly exaggerating for effect
2. Unknowingly exaggerating due to misremembering the total of bad vs neutral vs good runs - totally possible due to human memory

I'm choosing to believe you are under #2 and don't want admit that maybe your memory is faulty. Because I'd feel that anyone under #1 would have come clean by now on the exaggeration just to get people moving towards discussing the possible solutions to the problem.

My question is this:

Why are you so fixated on getting everyone to believe that so many players are bad rather than trying to get players focused on discussing possible solutions to reduce the number of bad players?

Because even I, who hasn't had anywhere near 50% bad runs, would agree that the game could do more to encourage players to learn their class and role. To increase the skill level of the average player.

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I am willing to bet if I count how many dungeons I do where as a tank or healer I am doing more damage then a DPS in the group, it probably would amount to 50%. I get for many that metric is moot, but for another using ACT data for dungeons and trials can account for a 50% of their encounters having someone that is playing subpar.

The 50% metric can be supported, but it just depends if you as a person care that a player is doing less damage then they should on average for someone of their ilvl and job.

Though I do think much of the back and forth on both sides stems from the fact that neither side does not want to be viewed as an asshole. This problem could be easily solved if people just took the time to remove people that view as underperforming. From personal experience it makes the run far more enjoyable. I kid you not I kick at least two people a day from doing my dailies because I just do not like to deal with players doing less damage then they should. I do not expect perfection but I also do not think it is right for a dps to do less damage then a tank or a healer especially during a boss fight.

Granted my view is harsh.