What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Teraq

If only it were. But I wouldn't celebrate so soon – not a mere ten hours away from a continuation of the story that, for all I know, will continue to insist nothing was wrong with what happened.

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Considering contents of patch story so far, they haven't insisted on anything over 6.1 or 6.2. The story of the ancients is just over and its very likely that the last we'll see of significant and not just passing focus on the ancients will be in 6.4 with last of Pandaemonium. The story arc around them is over. I think closest we'll get to returning to the topic is if they have one of still-surviving sundered Ascians show up in the story at some point, and even if that happens its almost certain the story of the ancients wont be relevant to whatever they'll be involved in. Nobody is 'insisting' nothing wrong happened in the story itself because the story has accepted that and has simply moved on.

Horse is, in fact, deader than the ancients, and likelyhood of them ever being relevant again past the finale of Pandaemonium is close to 0, so any argument about them is, in fact, just kicking the horse further.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

Considering contents of patch story so far, they haven't insisted on anything over 6.1 or 6.2. The story of the ancients is just over and its very likely that the last we'll see of significant and not just passing focus on the ancients will be in 6.4 with last of Pandaemonium. The story arc around them is over. I think closest we'll get to returning to the topic is if they have one of still-surviving sundered Ascians show up in the story at some point, and even if that happens its almost certain the story of the ancients wont be relevant to whatever they'll be involved in. Nobody is 'insisting' nothing wrong happened in the story itself because the story has accepted that and has simply moved on.

Horse is, in fact, deader than the ancients, and likelyhood of them ever being relevant again past the finale of Pandaemonium is close to 0, so any argument about them is, in fact, just kicking the horse further.

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There is hole to China where the horse use to be..

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

There is hole to China where the horse use to be..

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I think the hole goes past China all the way to Ultima Thule, looking at this thread's length.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

This, though, I would specifically disagree with - a framing of "the Ancients died because of a terrible, unplanned, unintentional tragedy" is very different from "the Ancients died because one person (righteously, the story argues) deliberately murdered them." Tragedy versus murder are not the same results to me. The story is not saying the same thing as far as the thematics of what it means to be "worthy to live" at the end of Shadowbringers versus the end of Endwalker - it rather ends up saying the opposite, in fact, because of that distinction between unintentional tragedy we universally have to make peace with the likes of, and a deliberate, narrative-justified murder for a believed greater good. "Bad things sometimes happen for no reason, even to good people" is not the same result to me as "some populations just need to die because they're not good enough."

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And this is the approach I disagree with.

It's one thing to critically discuss a piece of writing that absolutely failed to deliver its message cohesively and another to make a take on the story that you are fully aware and have admitted is not what was intended and to completely sprint with it, using buzzwords like "narrative-justified murder", "evil", or "worst villain in FF" that have a tendency to bait emotional responses both in support and against your posts.

I am with you in that I don't like how they changed the framing of the end of the Ancients, and I would like to discuss what they could've done differently, where they went wrong, and ask what they were thinking and what caused them to write it this way. But I'm not about go full in on ripping open the plot holes and tugging at the threads while running down the hallways screaming that Venat is a traitor to her race. Going full into extremes doesn't leave room for critical discussion and just causes a shouting match where no one budges and no one is convinced of anything.


The whole arc is over and it's probably not coming back and we're probably less likely to get any further clarification on things as the story moves forward with something completely new. That's what makes it even more baffling why people dwell on this to the point where it seems like they make it a part of their personality and go as far as making a discord to keep talking about it amongst themselves. The game has moved on without you.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

Considering contents of patch story so far, they haven't insisted on anything over 6.1 or 6.2. The story of the ancients is just over and its very likely that the last we'll see of significant and not just passing focus on the ancients will be in 6.4 with last of Pandaemonium. The story arc around them is over. I think closest we'll get to returning to the topic is if they have one of still-surviving sundered Ascians show up in the story at some point, and even if that happens its almost certain the story of the ancients wont be relevant to whatever they'll be involved in. Nobody is 'insisting' nothing wrong happened in the story itself because the story has accepted that and has simply moved on.

Horse is, in fact, deader than the ancients, and likelyhood of them ever being relevant again past the finale of Pandaemonium is close to 0, so any argument about them is, in fact, just kicking the horse further.

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Not even a patch ago we had Venat's crystal turn out not just to be an Apple Tag but a magical cure for Zero, because she's just so good, her blessing will be with us forever. Then we have the Twelve's storyline, likely related to the Ancients as well. Pandaemonium, as you've said, is literally the only story I'm looking forward to, and I'm ready for it to be terrible. Let's not forget Codex entries! How's that forging ahead™ from losing your sister working out for you, Vrtra?

Or how about that Gymnasion description on the 6.3 website? Funny how only the EN version makes the Ancients sound like bored demigods while JP, FR and DE never make any mention of that, instead portraying them as excited to see more of Azem's familiar…

I, in fact, can hardly wait for Ancients to actually stop being relevant. Because any prospect of them being touched any further makes me cringe. And yet I wish this wasn't the case.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The whole arc is over and it's probably not coming back and we're probably less likely to get any further clarification on things as the story moves forward with something completely new. That's what makes it even more baffling why people dwell on this to the point where it seems like they make it a part of their personality and go as far as making a discord to keep talking about it amongst themselves. The game has moved on without you.

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Honestly that's a really spiteful comment, I really hate this push that came into FF14 discussion where were told what we can and can't talk about. Yes it bothers me that a story I invested in over the years turned to eugenics is good, it's a evil and I will talk about it as long as I am subbed

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

It's one thing to critically discuss a piece of writing that absolutely failed to deliver its message cohesively and another to make a take on the story that you are fully aware and have admitted is not what was intended and to completely sprint with it, using buzzwords like "narrative-justified murder", "evil", or "worst villain in FF" that have a tendency to bait emotional responses both in support and against your posts.

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Once again, acknowledging it's not the intent makes it worse in terms of dissonance. It's possible our outlook differs in terms of the divide between "what was intended" by the writer versus "what was actually written", because I have no problem basically fully separating them in terms of analysis, more or less, and acknowledging the former while prioritizing the latter in terms of what in reality wound up being communicated from author to audience. But I don't know what to do, exactly, about your objection to the terminology. My honest take on what happened in the version of Endwalker that "was actually written" was that Venat committed murder that the narrative indeed tried to justify. She did it for ideological reasons that, to my personal view, yes, I would classify as something I see as evil, because of my own beliefs - both because I strongly disagree with her ideology in itself and because I disagree with abstract ideology in general being sufficient justification to sacrifice materially existing lives. I can also acknowledge, like I did, that it's clear Venat truly believed she was acting for the greater good of the world and for Life Itself.

If there's a terminology you'd prefer I use - disagreeable? wrong? immoral? - or that I just don't talk about why Venat's views don't sit well with me as an individual, well okay, but I'm really, really not saying the things I do in bad faith or insincerely. I obviously can only speak for myself here, just like anywhere else, but since I'm the one you're replying to...

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I am with you in that I don't like how they changed the framing of the end of the Ancients, and I would like to discuss what they could've done differently, where they went wrong, and ask what they were thinking and what caused them to write it this way. But I'm not about go full in on ripping open the plot holes and tugging at the threads while running down the hallways screaming that Venat is a traitor to her race. Going full into extremes doesn't leave room for critical discussion and just causes a shouting match where no one budges and no one is convinced of anything.

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Sure, I'm not much into specific race and race traitor rhetoric either, although unfortunately I think the toxic elements of the discourse going back to Shadowbringers when it comes to the Ascians partially accounts for some of that - and like I said, the "ideal" is critical discussion, which isn't always going to happen in such a general and open environment and with such an inherently contentious topic (again, because everyone knows and acknowledges it's reading against the grain of the text, and some people do just come here to vent. Which I think is usually fine as such, honestly.) But hey, if you want to have a crack at it, I'm open and eager if you want to share your ideas on where they went wrong! The question of how exactly they ended up in such a messy place just from a writing process standpoint is also interesting to me. There's a lot of angles to take on "WTF happened to EW's writing," honestly.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Not even a patch ago we had Venat's crystal turn out not just to be an Apple Tag but a magical cure for Zero, because she's just so good, her blessing will be with us forever. Then we have the Twelve's storyline, likely related to the Ancients as well. Pandaemonium, as you've said, is literally the only story I'm looking forward to, and I'm ready for it to be terrible. Let's not forget Codex entries! How's that forging ahead™ from losing your sister working out for you, Vrtra?

Or how about that Gymnasion description on the 6.3 website? Funny how only the EN version makes the Ancients sound like bored demigods while JP, FR and DE never make any mention of that, instead portraying them as excited to see more of Azem's familiar…

I, in fact, can hardly wait for Ancients to actually stop being relevant. Because any prospect of them being touched any further makes me cringe. And yet I wish this wasn't the case.

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I doubt Twelve will tie into Ancients any harder than they will into Ascians, as while association with Convocation was mentioned once, I doubt its gonna be elaborated that hard, nor expect any 'it was ancients fault all along' reveals. Crystal being a cure is no surprise, and blessing sticking with us is kinda a very important point because of protection against stuff like tempering and such. Thats not us coming back to ancients storyline in the slightest, as they werent even really mentioned in relation to that. Its just a convinient source of aether.

As for gymnasium, its not tied into any actual story so I'm not really counting that as ancient-related story, and moreso as a way to give Elpis as a location some approprietly unique content.

And ancients will never really truly stop being 'relevant' simply due to role they play in world's mythos, its just that their story arc is over and is unlikely to be revisited in some brand new light or with some brand new reveals. Ancients didnt care about life, got an unfair, yet ironically fitting form of divine retribution, two different ways of fighting against their nihilism were portrayed, they were willing to commit unspeakable crimes against life just for their own gain and had to be stopped, etc etc. We have seen the whole story in light that portrays each character in the ancients' story at their best and at their worst and we'll not get anything beyond that.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

And ancients will never really truly stop being 'relevant' simply due to role they play in world's mythos, its just that their story arc is over and is unlikely to be revisited in some brand new light or with some brand new reveals. Ancients didnt care about life, got an unfair, yet ironically fitting form of divine retribution, two different ways of fighting against their nihilism were portrayed, they were willing to commit unspeakable crimes against life just for their own gain and had to be stopped, etc etc. We have seen the whole story in light that portrays each character in the ancients' story at their best and at their worst and we'll not get anything beyond that.

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I don't get what you on about with the idea that the ancients didn't care about life that's the opposite of what the story showed they are deeply invested in the life cycle on Ethyris so I've got no idea what you are on about

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Honestly that's a really spiteful comment, I really hate this push that came into FF14 discussion where were told what we can and can't talk about. Yes it bothers me that a story I invested in over the years turned to eugenics is good, it's a evil and I will talk about it as long as I am subbed

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There is no simple "talking about it". Like I said in the rest of the post, it's just people repeating the same points over and sitting in their extremes with nothing new to be said. I'm not policing what you can and can't talk about, I'm pointing out that people just keep repeating the same thing expecting a different result, which is the definition of insanity.

It would be different if there was actual discussion that could go back and forth but you yourself are sitting in a world where to you the story turned into "eugenics is good", which again like I had said, doesn't exactly leave room for actual discussion except to have the serpent eat its tail and the cycle continues.

We're just saying things at each other and not with each other at this point and there's nothing new to say and there never will be without new content, which is doubtful.