Shots Fired: A Machinist Guide

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I suppose you can take stat weights as you like, but I commend Cascadi for getting a sim for the opener, which is generally the most hotly debated part of any class's rotation.

After that well...you can wait for my full featured sim to be completed.

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There would be a hard breakpoint where you get one more skill in your opener and SS would fly to the top. If you need any testing help for your sim, let me know. I have all the 160, 170, 180, and some 190 gear. Parsing around 900 sustained (no external buffs).

edit: It would be nice if he just removed that from his post. It is very misleading to people who are trying to gear. I had someone quote this post as to why they are wearing -20ilvl gear.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

You are right it isn't debatable. If you aren't toggling GB in between Buff cycles then you are playing the class wrong. Real application has shown anyone serious about MCH that this is the case but you can easily do some simple napkin math to figure out that having GB off when there are no buffs to pop and GR/Ricochet are on CD is a DPS gain..

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You are not playing the class wrong if you leave GB on 100% of the time. The added complexity of stance dancing isn't worth the very small dps gain of switching GB on and off. The times you can actually drop GB is actually very small because you will be juggling lead shot, gauss round, ricochet, blank, and head graze. Those attacks should never be used without GB and if you postpone them because you are stance dancing you are losing dps. The dps increase is marginal over a 3-5min fight and it is very easy to actually lose dps by screwing up.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

You are right it isn't debatable. If you aren't toggling GB in between Buff cycles then you are playing the class wrong. Real application has shown anyone serious about MCH that this is the case but you can easily do some simple napkin math to figure out that having GB off when there are no buffs to pop and GR/Ricochet are on CD is a DPS gain.

AAs are roughly 80~ Potency. You will AA with almost every GCD with GB off so it is safe to assume the you will do a GCD + AA and then you can compare it to a GCD + GB Bonus.

Split Shot - 140 Potency. | GB = 182 With AA = 220
Slug Shot - 180 Potency. | GB = 234 With AA = 260
Clean Shot - 200 Potency. | GB = 260 With AA = 280
Lead Shot - 490 Potency. | GB = 637 With AA = 570
Hot Shot - 120 Potency. | GB = 156 With AA = 200

Starting to see a pattern?

The only skill that loses potency while not under GB is Lead Shot, which can easily be used while under GB since it has a 30 second duration. You can time its application with your GB cycles.


Obviously you want GB on for buffs and every time GR/Ricochet is up but you can easily stance dance when those aren't available which will greatly increase your DPS.

Before you would always stay in GB because it was very hard to re-apply and you would lose a lot of DPS from missing out on GR/Rico but now you can keep those on CD, apply your Dots and use your buffs while under GB and turn it off whenever it isn't needed.

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Your numbers are a bit off. You forgot to factor in the extra damage from Increased Action Damage 2 and Hot Shot. The damage bonus on GB would be 63.8% and 80.18% with a dragoon. Extra damage for non-GB would be 26% and 38.6% respectively. So, assuming a drg giving 10% piercing buff (rounded to nearest potency):

Split Shot-- GB w/o ammo: 252 - GB w/ ammo: 288 - No GB w/o ammo: 274 - No GB w/ ammo: 302

Slug Shot-- GB w/o ammo: 324 - GB w/ ammo: 360 - No GB w/o ammo: 329 - No GB w/ ammo: 357

Clean Shot-- GB w/o ammo: 360 - GB w/ ammo: 396 - No GB w/o ammo: 357 - No GB w/ ammo: 385

Lead Shot-- GB : 883 - No GB: 759

Hot Shot-- GB: 216 - No GB: 246

So, toggling still applies, but Clean Shot also gets a higher potency at all times, as does Slug Shot when ammo is up. I think the best way would be to start with GB on, do your big opener, turn it off until your next Gauss Round is ready. With the 15 second cooldown, you might as well keep it on for 20 seconds until the next Gauss Round is up before turning it off again. You just always want to make sure it's up and ready for buff phase, Ricochet and GR. Yes, it's a dps increase, but the question is how much-- and how easy will it actually be to do when you're dodging mechanics and dealing with phase changes.

The biggest thing about GB is it's scaling. AA's don't benefit from Increased Action Damage, so they will always remain static while GB will push higher potencies beyond what AAs can give. Now, if GB affected turrets as well, that would make it no contest to keep it on at all times, but sadly, it doesn't.

the way i read slash/pierce debuff works is rather than being multiplicative with your modifiers, it simply just means you divide your potency after the modifiers by 0.9 to factor the debuff in the final numbers. so split with gauss would be 140 x 1.638 (229.30), then divided by 0.9 for debuff=254.8 (255 rounded) vs the 252 rounded

stance dancing is manageable, but i've been finding it takes a fair amount of tunnelvision to make sure that head graze/blank also are used in gauss only. im sure if you ignored those oGCDs that the benefit from stance dancing would be pretty small; but working around rico+gr and then those two attacks as well is sort of annoying outside of a dummy fight

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Your numbers are a bit off. You forgot to factor in the extra damage from Increased Action Damage 2 and Hot Shot.

The biggest thing about GB is it's scaling. AA's don't benefit from Increased Action Damage, so they will always remain static while GB will push higher potencies beyond what AAs can give. Now, if GB affected turrets as well, that would make it no contest to keep it on at all times, but sadly, it doesn't.

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Without considering the DRG and only considering your Clean Shot + Gauss and Clean Shot + AA you can easily go to a test dummy and just use a proc'd clean shot over and over again, get its average then us it with GB on and get its average.

When I did this calculation it came out to be around 1250 vs 1320 Damage with the favor in CS + AA. AA's are on a slightly longer CD though.

I'm not sure how much other buffs will change the equation but considering they effect AA's too it won't be that much.

Tunnel visioning is the only reason I wouldn't consistently hop in and out of GB. Especially when learning new fights. MCH can already be very tunnel vision-y without the stance dancing.

The potency gain on CS is really small but the potency you get from Split and slug shot fishing is really high. You could easily use Head Graze and Blank while not under GB and still be gaining a decent amount of damage and mobility.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

When I did this calculation it came out to be around 1250 vs 1320 Damage with the favor in CS + AA. AA's are on a slightly longer CD though.

I'm not sure how much other buffs will change the equation but considering they effect AA's too it won't be that much.

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You need to hot shot before you do this testing though it's in favor of the AA still. With HS it's a lot closer.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

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Thanks for the info. I wasn't exactly sure how the debuffs worked. That would make it even better to have GB on with a DRG. And I agree about tunnel vision being the biggest problem. between having to manage procs, OGCD abilities, and dealing with mechanics during a fight, toggling GB on and off could actual prove more detrimental if you're not focused enough. MCH is a very precise class and one mistake can be costly to your dps, especially during a buff phase.

I guess we'll have to see what changes 3.05 has in store, if there's any at all.

@Lavieh: Yeah, without a DRG (or ammo) Clean Shot falls behind with GB. What makes GB strong is its scaling, which doesn't work as well with our low potencies. It's too bad GB doesn't affect turrets, but that might make them too powerful.

Higher potency with crit magnitude is also a factor if you're really planning to compare the two although I'd prefer a similar optimized parse to compare instead of theoretical.

w/ GB
CS
327.6*1.5=491.4
Slug
294.84*1.5=442.26
Split
229.32*1.5=343.98

w/o GB
CS
252*1.5=378
Slug
226.8*1.5=340.2
Split
176.4=264.6

98 Potency gain on average per crit with GB on. And when you look at actual raw noncrit potency w/ GB there is a 60~ skill potency gain. You AA every ~3s and GCDs are ~2.4s so for example in a 5 minute parse, if you have GB off for 48 seconds:

20 GCDs fit into that duration, 16 AAs fit into that duration. In that window w/ GB, based on the 60~ skill potency gain, 60*20=1200 potency gain. Without GB,80*16=1280 potency. And that's not factoring crit in. Let's assume 10% crit and 2 of those skills crit. We're looking at

w/ GB
1200+98=1298 potency

w/o GB
1280 potency

This is also not considering that there are times when stance dancing that you may have to use headgraze/blank w/o GB

You actually get 18 AA in 48 seconds. 2.64 delay. Also, AA can crit :)

Regardless, you aren't always going to be using Clean Shot and there are clear potency gains on Split shot and Slug shot (With out ammo included).

Also most guns have a 2.64 Delay ( replying to Massterchef)

The highest I have seen is 2.8 (DW gun) and lowest is 2.48 (IW)