It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

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Originally Posted by Teno

Imagine giving people the option of glasses that alter their perception of you, who you are and what you choose to project, essentially denying your self (it is what it is), with no approval of course. Then translate that into a game heavily built on glamour as content.

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Imagine caring that much about what others think of you.

While we're at it, we should have the option to display lalafells as another race if they decide to play Tank or Melee. It's frankly immersion breaking to suggest those tiny things could possibly have the physical strength to defeat anything, save for the ladybugs outside of Gridania. It's not like your choice of race and hairstyle truly matters, in the end it's just another form of cosmetic.
</sarcasm>

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Originally Posted by Joven

Imagine caring that much about what others think of you.

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I had already guessed as much : you're clueless and fail to see the point. Guess I'll leave this at that.

And yes everyone cares that much about what others think of them, like it or not, whatever you might think or not, unless they're some stoicism masters (and even then).

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Originally Posted by Teno

I had already guessed as much : you're clueless and fail to see the point. Guess I'll leave this at that.

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Whatever you say.

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Originally Posted by Teno

And yes everyone cares that much about what others think of them, like it or not, whatever you might think or not, unless they're some stoicism masters (and even then).

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Firstly, that's not what stoicism is and secondly, the only people you should care about what they think are friends and family. Tying your self worth to other's opinions is a short road to disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Whatever you say.



Firstly, that's not what stoicism is and secondly, the only people you should care about what they think are friends and family. Tying your self worth to other's opinions is a short road to disappointment.

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Yeah, you really failed to see the point, no use going down that path further I guess. No direct mention of friends, family or strangers there, but psyche and subconscious in particular. I don't feel like like it's the place for this though. Whatever. And yes it's absolutely tied to stoicism in what I referenced.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Yeah, you really failed to see the point, no use going down that path further I guess. No direct mention of friends, family or strangers there

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You said:

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Originally Posted by Teno

Imagine giving people the option of glasses that alter their perception of you

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Who are these people if not strangers or friends and faimly?

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Originally Posted by Teno

And yes it's absolutely tied to stoicism in what I referenced.

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Stoicism is about controlling your emotions. About not lashing out when angry, or breaking down and crying when sad. It's knowing there's a time and place for that and whenever you're needed to step up you're not a quivering ball in the corner.

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Originally Posted by Joven

You said:


Who are these people if not strangers or friends and faimly?



Stoicism is about controlling your emotions. About not lashing out when angry, or breaking down and crying when sad. It's knowing there's a time and place for that and whenever you're needed to step up you're not a quivering ball in the corner.

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Stoicism is so much more than this limited definition. People literally live their entire lives revolving around it, it goes much deeper than that.
Strangers/friends/family/society/(more) as a whole/construct working on a subconscious level.
All in all, it's interesting to see that you base your opinion on a somewhat surface level, it helps set the context for your previous comments, and I'm saying this in a very neutral tone.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Stoicism is so much more than this limited definition. People literally live their entire lives revolving around it, it goes much deeper than that.

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It really isn't and doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Strangers/friends/family/society/(more) as a whole/construct working on a subconscious level.
All in all, it's interesting to see that you base your opinion on a somewhat surface level, it helps set the context for your previous comments, and I'm saying this in a very neutral tone.

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Let me frame it this way: I've struggled with low self esteem for most of my life. It's something I still have to deal with to this day, but once I realized that the majority of people's opinions of me are largely irrelevant it was a breath of fresh air. I do things for my own enjoyment. I wear what I want and participate in the hobbies I want and if people want to turn their noses up at that, look away or look down on me for it, that's a them problem. If someone wants to get to know me then they have to put the effort in.

I can't control what other people think or do, only what I do. If that's a problem for some then too bad.

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Originally Posted by Joven

It really isn't and doesn't.



Let me frame it this way: I've struggled with low self esteem for most of my life. It's something I still have to deal with to this day, but once I realized that the majority of people's opinions of me are largely irrelevant it was a breath of fresh air. I do things for my own enjoyment. I wear what I want and participate in the hobbies I want and if people want to turn their noses up at that, look away or look down on me for it, that's a them problem. If someone wants to get to know me then they have to put the effort in.

I can't control what other people think or do, only what I do. If that's a problem for some then too bad.

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It is.

And again, that's completely, completely beyond the point. Subconscious and not surface, etc... But it's just banging the head against the wall at this rate.

When did this thread turn into some weird philosophical debate? (˵¯̴͒ꇴ¯̴͒˵)
Maybe stick the topic a little more? Or be entertaining? What you two are doing is just kind of...blah. (｢๑•₃•)｢ ʷʱʸ?

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Originally Posted by Teno

It is.

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People only want it be more complicated than what it is because they can't believe it's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Teno

And again, that's completely, completely beyond the point. Subconscious and not surface, etc... But it's just banging the head against the wall at this rate.

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Self esteem is entirely a subconscious issue. When it comes to "projecting your self", as you put it, it's all about self esteem. If it wasn't then it wouldn't be a problem if others to want to change how they perceive you.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

When did this thread turn into some weird philosophical debate? (˵¯̴͒ꇴ¯̴͒˵)
Maybe stick the topic a little more? Or be entertaining? What you two are doing is just kind of...blah. (｢๑•₃•)｢ ʷʱʸ?

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Maybe because part of the topic is whether or not hiding someone's glamour is somehow removing people's "identity"? The ramifications of something like that is both a philosophical and psychological discussion. If you're not "entertained", then maybe go elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Joven

People only want it be more complicated than what it is because they can't believe it's that simple.



Self esteem is entirely a subconscious issue. When it comes to "projecting your self", as you put it, it's all about self esteem. If it wasn't then it wouldn't be a problem if others to want to change how they perceive you.



Maybe because part of the topic is whether or not hiding someone's glamour is somehow removing people's "identity"? The ramifications of something like that is both a philosophical and psychological discussion. If you're not "entertained", then maybe go elsewhere.

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Deep =/= complex.
Self-esteem =/= entirely subconscious. Plus there are other factors at stake, but I don't want to go into that, it's derailing a bit.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Deep =/= complex.

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It's not even deep.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Self-esteem =/= entirely subconscious. Plus there are other factors at stake, but I don't want to go into that, it's derailing a bit.

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You make the assertation that someone changing their perception of you is "denying your self". Discussing that is not derailing the thread as it's part of the whole.

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Originally Posted by Joven

It's not even deep.



You make the assertation that someone changing their perception of you is "denying your self". Discussing that is not derailing the thread as it's part of the whole.

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It is deep. And the topic has derailed a bit from that though (not entirely). You're missing the point (or I'm not getting the point across ?) and I'm not willing to expand on it, so not much to add.

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Originally Posted by Teno

It is deep. And the topic has derailed a bit from that though (not entirely). You're missing the point (or I'm not getting the point across ?) and I'm not willing to expand on it, so not much to add.

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"it is deep"
Well, go on then. Explain how it's deep. The class is waiting.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

"it is deep"
Well, go on then. Explain how it's deep. The class is waiting.

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294 pages.

Not that they can't or won't explain themselves, but that's a good indication of how complicated (or inane) the situation is.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

294 pages.

Not that they can't or won't explain themselves, but that's a good indication of how complicated (or inane) the situation is.

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idk... can't be bothered to go through it all however forum trends point towards the likelyhood that a majority of those pages are filled with posts that have nothing to do with the supposed discussion.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

294 pages.

Not that they can't or won't explain themselves, but that's a good indication of how complicated (or inane) the situation is.

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Or they're just building it up when really it's as deep as a puddle.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Imagine giving people the option of glasses that alter their perception of you, who you are and what you choose to project, essentially denying your self (it is what it is), with no approval of course. Then translate that into a game heavily built on glamour as content.

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God I wish glasses like that existed. Turn the world into just faceless entities. I am not really one to care about how others view me hell I legit have copies of the same outfit and wear the same style like some cartoon character.

So forgive me for my ignorance, why would it be such an issue if people had the option to alter the appearance of others within their own vision? It seems like an extreme case of using one imagination? I know I tend to do when I am get overwhelmed around people I just pretend they are talking animals.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Seriously, have you realised what mismatched outfits tend to look like with the glamour stripped off them? They are disastrous.

You'd be losing more coordinated glamours than you gained.

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This. You think silly glamours are bad? Wait till you see me in my penelo shorts and massive armor top and feather headdress on my dancer.

Honestly overall, not a Feature I think this game needs. While there are some outlandish immersion breaking Glams / Transmogs...thats just how being in a social space is, not to far from Reality...I know its a videogame..but still, people will express themselves and dress up how they please. If you dont like looking at it...Im sorry, tough.
Better things could be done with those Resources and time then censoring how people choose to dress. .

This thread overall reminds me that Homeowner Associations exist in the US with how anti-expression it is.

Oh this is back at top again. Guild Wars 2 and other MMOs have an option to lower the character models to improve performance. Which is a nice feature to have to boost performance.

Mods already exist where you can change the character models so I don’t see how making everyone’s race their default model would be a bad thing. I get people want to show off their character but not wanting to see your character for any reason would be fair.

Personally if the game performance improved by lowering the character model to default I would have it on all the time.

Also having this an option on for kids would be perfect.

I don’t understand the people who oppose this.

Legitimately, how does it effect you?

You wouldn’t know. Nothing changes for you. You still get your skimpy miqos and your boys in dresses. Everyone can continue wearing their clown outfits. There’s really no loss to you

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

I don’t understand the people who oppose this.

Legitimately, how does it effect you?

You wouldn’t know. Nothing changes for you. You still get your skimpy miqos and your boys in dresses. Everyone can continue wearing their clown outfits. There’s really no loss to you

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Because then they couldn't force their expression on others to feed their vanity.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

I don’t understand the people who oppose this.

Legitimately, how does it effect you?

You wouldn’t know. Nothing changes for you. You still get your skimpy miqos and your boys in dresses. Everyone can continue wearing their clown outfits. There’s really no loss to you

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In turn, I don't understand people who agree with this.

How does seeing someone's glamour affect you in any way?

Too scared that you'll be accosted by naked people in Emperor's New? That never happens. If it does, ToS hammer.
Too scared your immersion will be broken? As if the game doesn't do that anyway in the MSQ itself.
Do you just find it too silly? Again, the game itself does it. You literally have Aymeric going around as a blue elephant in the middle of the Empyreum for a joke.
Don't tell me it's because you get jealous over people having mogstation items...

You'd see some pretty garish combinations. Mismatched items. Absolutely trashy without needing to even resort to having skimpy people or clown outfits.

The loss is on everyone there. People take time to make glamours and not look like eyesores on other peoples' screens, but sure, let's punish those people just because the person in the corner has their smallclothes out.

At the moment, you're on Warrior with an Augmented Ironworks Armor of Fending, Noct bottoms and Demon Sabatons of Fending. What if we were to strip your Lalafell and make you always look like that?

...lol also you're the one currently wearing an item literally called "Clown's Top". Projecting much?

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

In turn, I don't understand people who agree with this.

How does seeing someone's glamour affect you in any way?

Too scared that you'll be accosted by naked people in Emperor's New? That never happens. If it does, ToS hammer.
Too scared your immersion will be broken? As if the game doesn't do that anyway in the MSQ itself.
Do you just find it too silly? Again, the game itself does it. You literally have Aymeric going around as a blue elephant in the middle of the Empyreum for a joke.
Don't tell me it's because you get jealous over people having mogstation items...

You'd see some pretty garish combinations. Mismatched items. Absolutely trashy without needing to even resort to having skimpy people or clown outfits.

The loss is on everyone there. People take time to make glamours and not look like eyesores on other peoples' screens, but sure, let's punish those people just because the person in the corner has their smallclothes out.

At the moment, you're on Warrior with an Augmented Ironworks Armor of Fending, Noct bottoms and Demon Sabatons of Fending. What if we were to strip your Lalafell and make you always look like that?

...lol also you're the one currently wearing an item literally called "Clown's Top". Projecting much?

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To be fair it is kind of different, one side is asking for an option to allow more personal agency over their in game experience, by allowing them to hide certain things they rather not see, instead of outright requesting said items just disappear. While the other side is saying tough deal with it I will dress how I want and you will look at me be fabulous.

One is asking for an option, the other in a way can be seen taking the stance of well sorry tough shit. Seems a tad weird, granted this will never happen and is an utter waste of resources but personally one side does seem more reasonable then the other. Granted, I solved my own issue by using the power of things that cannot be mentioned, and overall it is awesome.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

In turn, I don't understand people who agree with this.

How does seeing someone's glamour affect you in any way?

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Firstly, I'm not asking for this. Overall I don't care what you wear. However, the only person this request affects is the person who wants to opt in. They have to look at your outfit. You wouldn't know the difference if they opted in or not. There is 0 impact on the glamour wearer. If you don't understand how there is an affect to the viewer, then I think you are just willfully ignoring it. Probably due to some sense of bias.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

...lol also you're the one currently wearing an item literally called "Clown's Top". Projecting much?

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Notice how I mentioned clown outfit? It's not projection. I'm acknowledging my own outfit.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Legitimately, how does it effect you?

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I guess Ill say it effects me in a different way...
Lets say this effects me, because the time the devs put into making this feature, takes away time or even further postpones something else.

-More hairstyles for Hrothgar & Viera
-Making more Headgear for Hrothgar & Viera
-"Fixing" more older past headgear to fit Hrothgar and Viera
-Improvements & fixes to Jobs and Encounter design
-Making more and improving Side Content
-More better Glams
-Possibly (its a pipedream) creating new Job Quests
-Improving Frontlines PvP
-Improving PvP in General
-Making more and better rewards for The Wolfs Den
-Making more and better rewards for The Gold Saucer
-Even Better Holiday Event Rewards and Storylines.
-Improving and Updating the CC for more Avatar Options
-More Voice Acting in Cutscenes

I mean, those are just a handful of other things that could be done, but time and resources get taken away because they instead put it into people who dont like looking at other peoples glamours that the devs put time into making possible..

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Firstly, I'm not asking for this.

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General "you". Not you in specific. I'm saying "you, the people who don't agree with this".

Just like in your post, no? Or are YOU, you specifically, you Kolaina, addressing anyone directly when you say "Legitimately, how does it effect you?"

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Notice how I mentioned clown outfit? It's not projection. I'm acknowledging my own outfit.

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Exactly :P That I'll admit is just a joke. Just me going "you sure you're not talking about yourself here~?"

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I guess Ill say it effects me in a different way...
Lets say this effects me, because the time the devs put into making this feature, takes away time or even further postpones something else.

-More hairstyles for Hrothgar & Viera
-Making more Headgear for Hrothgar & Viera
-"Fixing" more older past headgear to fit Hrothgar and Viera
-Improvements & fixes to Jobs and Encounter design
-Making more and improving Side Content
-More better Glams
-Possibly (its a pipedream) creating new Job Quests
-Improving Frontlines PvP
-Improving PvP in General
-Making more and better rewards for The Wolfs Den
-Making more and better rewards for The Gold Saucer
-Even Better Holiday Event Rewards and Storylines.
-Improving and Updating the CC for more Avatar Options
-More Voice Acting in Cutscenes

I mean, those are just a handful of other things that could be done, but time and resources get taken away because they instead put it into people who dont like looking at other peoples glamours that the devs put time into making possible..

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To be fair couldn't one say that for any content that they do not personally engage in? So would it really be an argument at that point?

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

To be fair couldn't one say that for any content that they do not personally engage in? So would it really be an argument at that point?

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so then....does the same apply to the Glamour Toggle? is there no argument for it if people dont care for it / want it?
But also, I dont think this is a good counter argument personally.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

so then....does the same apply to the Glamour Toggle? is there no argument for it if people dont care for it / want it?
But also, I dont think this is a good counter argument personally.

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"they shouldn't spend time on it because I personally do not value it or what it achieves and think the effort would be better spent on THESE things" isn't a good argument.

That is always going to be a problem. People want things you don't care about and don't want things you care about. It's a given and a non-discussion.

Things will also always need fixing. This does not mean that other features or things shouldn't even be discussed. If you wait to eat until the whole world has been fed you will starve.



Also I see a couple responses saying things like "censor" and "anti-expression" and "punish".

This does not apply. Nobody is being made NOT to do anything. Everyone still has full control over what their character looks like on their screen and to willing participants in their groupings. Any glamour at all at any time as far as you can tell. You can look at everyone elses glamour with no problem. Nobody is hiding THEMSELVES from you either (though this probably should be a thing for blacklists).


That and the there are people who cannot decouple "I wish not to see this" from "I don't want you to be like this" in their heads. There is a huge and distinct difference between the two asks.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

"they shouldn't spend time on it because I personally do not value it or what it achieves and think the effort would be better spent on THESE things" isn't a good argument.

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You're right, it wasn't even an argument to begin with.
It was a personal statement. Its how I feel about it.
The argument I did bring up though, answering a question: "how does it effect you?" I did make an argument on that; that the idea of this feature effects me in another way, that it takes away time from other things that would be better in the grander scheme and health of the game.

But not once did I suggest or even say that the topic couldn't be discussed for any reason. Matter of fact...we are already talking about it XD

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

"they shouldn't spend time on it because I personally do not value it or what it achieves and think the effort would be better spent on THESE things" isn't a good argument.

That is always going to be a problem. People want things you don't care about and don't want things you care about. It's a given and a non-discussion.

Things will also always need fixing. This does not mean that other features or things shouldn't even be discussed. If you wait to eat until the whole world has been fed you will starve.



Also I see a couple responses saying things like "censor" and "anti-expression" and "punish".

This does not apply. Nobody is being made NOT to do anything. Everyone still has full control over what their character looks like on their screen and to willing participants in their groupings. Any glamour at all at any time as far as you can tell. You can look at everyone elses glamour with no problem. Nobody is hiding THEMSELVES from you either (though this probably should be a thing for blacklists).


That and the there are people who cannot decouple "I wish not to see this" from "I don't want you to be like this" in their heads. There is a huge and distinct difference between the two asks.

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No one is going to know what they see on their own screen. Frankly I doubt many would care if it was an option. Yet it's when people like the recent troll who wanted to have a poll or w/e chose to post in here and there's been others just like them who say they want this option to be implemented because they want a safe space and come off like they'd take some form of glee from knowing they'd be seeing people in their mishmash of gear the idea starts to sour some people.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

No one is going to know what they see on their own screen. Frankly I doubt many would care if it was an option. Yet it's when people like the recent troll who wanted to have a poll or w/e chose to post in here and there's been others just like them who say they want this option to be implemented because they want a safe space and come off like they'd take some form of glee from knowing they'd be seeing people in their mishmash of gear the idea starts to sour some people.

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It's no different from those on here who take glee in dressing certain ways to annoy people.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

it takes away time from other things that would be better in the grander scheme and health of the game.

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Also an opinion. The performance increase possible by creating a reduction in characters on the screen or complexity of others glamours on the screen would be of great benefit to large amounts of people AND increase the potential user base. What is "healthier"? Opinion.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

But not once did I suggest or even say that the topic couldn't be discussed for any reason. Matter of fact...we are already talking about it XD

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Neither did I, but the (you say) opinion being leveled here is a common retort to even the discussion. I've been talking about this at length, possibly with you in this same thread.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Yet it's when people like the recent troll who wanted to have a poll or w/e chose to post in here and there's been others just like them who say they want this option to be implemented because they want a safe space and come off like they'd take some form of glee from knowing they'd be seeing people in their mishmash of gear the idea starts to sour some people.

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I'd say we treat these "supporters" the same way we treat the opponents who say they'd specifically dress in whatever way possible to continue to be a "disruption". They are Non-contributory and to be dismissed. Antagonists who just like to antagonize.

I'm not sure if I said it in this thread or the other but I'll repeat that an interesting tactic I've seen in several forums to discredit or undermine support for an idea is to pretend to support it for incredibly horrendous reasons and defend those to the death.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

---Also an opinion. The performance increase possible by creating a reduction in characters on the screen or complexity of others glamours on the screen would be of great benefit to large amounts of people AND increase the potential user base. What is "healthier"? Opinion.

---Neither did I, but the (you say) opinion being leveled here is a common retort to even the discussion. I've been talking about this at length, possibly with you in this same thread.

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---Reductions of characters on screen to improve performance. Ill co-sign this, because it IS a good idea, especially for people who dont have Beast Rigs, or for situations where this is to many people on screen that is lags the game or hides things like NPCs.
This wouldn't effect the size of the Userbase though. So thats a weird point XD

---So then whats the issue? Neither one of us said the discussion couldnt be had.
Or Are opinions bad on an open forum just because you dont like it? Or because I share a similar opinion to others on the discussion?
Im confused by this second point

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

This wouldn't effect the size of the Userbase though. So thats a weird point XD

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You reduce the level of hardware necessary to access the game, more people can and will play. Broadening the potential user base increases it. This is part of why minecraft is such a phenomenon, you can play it on ANYTHING.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

---So then whats the issue? Neither one of us said the discussion couldnt be had.
Or Are opinions bad on an open forum just because you dont like it? Or because I share a similar opinion to others on the discussion?
Im confused by this second point

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I don't think there is an issue. I don't think I was making any comment on what you were discussing in this regard with anyone else. All I'm saying here is that your response is often considered a counterpoint to even the discussion of the topic, but if you're open to keep discussing then nevermind.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

---You reduce the level of hardware necessary to access the game, more people can and will play. Broadening the potential user base increases it. This is part of why minecraft is such a phenomenon, you can play it on ANYTHING.

---I don't think there is an issue. I don't think I was making any comment on what you were discussing in this regard with anyone else. All I'm saying here is that your response is often considered a counterpoint to even the discussion of the topic, but if you're open to keep discussing then nevermind.

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---Of all the hurdlers Ive heard about this game....being able to run it wasnt one of them.

---So there is no issue then. Got it.
GG team!