Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I don’t really think op is lying

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Maybe not lying, but probably exaggerating.

Ever heard of the term "brain dead"? No content in this game could ever possibly be described as that, and yet people use it any way to describe what they feel is easy content.

Either way, all it shows is that people have different experiences, let alone different values and different priorities. So what might seem a problem to a group of people might not be for others.

Call it a "culture of enabling" if you want, but if people don't see it as a problem, then it's not a problem. That said, just because people don't see certain things as a problem, doesn't mean they don't see anything as a problem. It just depends on the situations.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

But many players who don't believe you also play on NA, it's not just EU players who think you're full of it.

And really I'm more inclined to believe the people whose experience of DF is similar to my own because I don't think there is any special nationality or culture for creating a large population of very bad players to the point that you claim.

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I am from the EU and I know that there are trash players who are intentionally trolling you. I tend to assume that someone is performing terrible on purpose but even if they are not doing it intentionally, the fact remains that they are way too bad and they are not sprouts.

For example, today, as I was levelling my sch, doing Dohn Mheg. For the first time I had a party that failed the dps check at the last boss. And I have done that dungeon more than 40 times. It is not that they couldn't cross, they did, around the same time as me. At our next attempt, lb was used because oh well, pressing buttons in a coordinated way requires too much effort, it is easier to just press one.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

because what do they have to gain for lying?

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Are you new to gaming forums? Trolling is very common.

If OP is being truthful then they must have the worst luck ever because it doesn't sound like they're playing the same game as I am. I'm not even exaggerating. Their claims contrast my experiences so much that for me the only logical explanation is that their claims aren't true.

I'm not saying bad players don't exist, they do. Some are spectacularly terrible. But I refuse to believe that NA is some sort of cesspit of laziness and a lack of skill, which is the image OP is painting. There are differences across regions but not to the point that they each may as well be playing different games.

And honestly...in my long years of playing mmos I have seen many overreact hugely when they encounter a player who is merely okay and talk about them as if they're horrendous. So I take it with a pinch of salt when someone complains about a massive amount of ludicrously terrible players that I and others somehow rarely see.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Are you new to gaming forums? Trolling is very common.

If OP is being truthful then they must have the worst luck ever because it doesn't sound like they're playing the same game as I am. I'm not even exaggerating. Their claims contrast my experiences so much that for me the only logical explanation is that their claims aren't true.

I'm not saying bad players don't exist, they do. Some are spectacularly terrible. But I refuse to believe that NA is some sort of cesspit of laziness and a lack of skill, which is the image OP is painting. There are differences across regions but not to the point that they each may as well be playing different games.

And honestly...in my long years of playing mmos I have seen many overreact hugely when they encounter a player who is merely okay and talk about them as if they're horrendous. So I take it with a pinch of salt when someone complains about a massive amount of ludicrously terrible players that I and others somehow rarely see.

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I just find it interesting that people are so quick to say like, “oh this person must be lying or exaggerating.” But then those same people are the ones going “oh i choose to see the best in people and these “bad” players just cannot be lazy. It can’t be on purpose!” Just seems like a really weird double standard.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just find it interesting that people are so quick to say like, “oh this person must be lying or exaggerating.” But then those same people are the ones going “oh i choose to see the best in people and these “bad” players just cannot be lazy. It can’t be on purpose!” Just seems like a really weird double standard.

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Yea I'm not one of those people, I haven't ever said "I choose to see the best in people". What I had said is that I give people the benefit of the doubt. Some assume bad player = must be lazy. When the truth is not as black and white as that. Someone could be having a bad day, be tired after a long day, not played the class in ages, new to the content or not done it in ages, getting lag spikes, being distracted irl by something, be disabled, are actually doing their best but it just happens that their skill ceiling is low...or they could be lazy.

Not assuming everyone underperforming is a leech isn't the same as seeing the best in people. It's simply having enough sense to know that there are more variables than good and lazy when it comes to performance.

So when I see someone not doing very well I think "hrmm they're not doing very well" and not "OMG LEECHER!!!!!". If they're doing bad enough that it's causing a problem then I say something and if they're offended by the idea that they're expected to play adequately for the content we're in that's when I label them as lazy. I don't go straight to assuming the absolute worst about people. I need more than "a blm should be doing higher dps than that" to form that sort of opinion.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

I am from the EU and I know that there are trash players who are intentionally trolling you. I tend to assume that someone is performing terrible on purpose but even if they are not doing it intentionally, the fact remains that they are way too bad and they are not sprouts.

For example, today, as I was levelling my sch, doing Dohn Mheg. For the first time I had a party that failed the dps check at the last boss. And I have done that dungeon more than 40 times. It is not that they couldn't cross, they did, around the same time as me. At our next attempt, lb was used because oh well, pressing buttons in a coordinated way requires too much effort, it is easier to just press one.

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So you assume malice before anything else? Gee, I wonder why you too experience problems in your DF runs. I do wonder indeed.

In fact, it makes me think you'd probably end up reporting people who have legit done nothing wrong, oh no, I've not forgotten about your ACT thread. I figured you were just looking to understand how you may best report on legit leechers and bad faith players, now I think you're more likely to be one of those who eventually gets snagged by the GMs for false reporting.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

So you assume malice before anything else? Gee, I wonder why you too experience problems in your DF runs. I do wonder indeed.

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Even the Mystery Gang is perplexed! Will no one be able to solve this mystery? :(

With all this talk about lying I'm surprised no one has brought up the question of are you actually lying if you truly believe what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

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I never said I experience many problems. Why are you putting it like that? Are you trying to tell me that you never ever run into players who are getting under your skin in DF? If I did experience way too many, I wouldn't have 1300 comms just from two months of playing. I am not going to say, the five runs I did yesterday with tanks who used their cooldowns properly felt like a blessing. Sustaining them didn't feel difficult and I enjoyed my run with them. Or that blm I got in the twinning that uses elixirs like me to execute 4 flares in succession. The mobs were melting and it felt great. In the post, you quoted I legit said I had done that dungeon more than 40 times. In all of those cases, I have never met people as bad as them. How am I not supposed to think they are just being lazy and expected to be carried? They were not sprouts or new to the dungeon.

I no longer report anyone except people who skip cutscenes in msq roulette. I am just not naive. You can't tell me that someone who is wasting my time is doing it with good intent at heart. At one point the duo dps in that run just stood and did nothing. When I asked them about it, they said they went to make tea. While I am sustaining the inexperienced tank that is not using cds. They couldn't write, hey guys pls wait 1-2min right? Communicating with your teammates is too much of a hassle. And then I am not expected to assume malice about these people.

It is pretty obvious that I am not going to think that the 31 level tank I got in haukke manor is trolling. They just don't know how to play, which is just fine. Not everyone who is bad is trolling. I was terrible at whm as well at the beginning. I only over-healed and never did any dps. I was running around when there was nothing to heal and I was thinking I was doing an amazing job because I was getting comms from other players. But when I got lucky enough to get someone who would give me tips about how to play better I listened, followed them and started playing better. I didn't argue and didn't pretend to know better the same way some people, who have a lot of learning to do, do.

I reserve a nice attitude towards sprouts who are actually apologizing when they make mistakes, the same way I did when I was learning. Recognizing one's own failures indicates that maybe they are willing to learn and get better. I don't even bother to give advice or tip to someone who can't even greet his party members.

"I tend to assume that someone is performing terrible on purpose but even if they are not doing it intentionally" - I do that because most players who are performing terrible never communicate unless they are confronted, some don't even reply. And I am left to wonder why. And the most logical answer is because they are self-centred.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

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Even the Mystery Gang is perplexed! Will no one be able to solve this mystery? :(

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I see I am receiving "I am going to hate you and make fun of you since I don't have better use for my time" treatment.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I think that the issue is being very, very exaggerated, but I would be foolish to say that it never happens, because it does.

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What's more foolish is admitting there is a problem and making fun of those who encounter the problem.