Dark Devices - Exploitation

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Originally Posted by Ravij

Most did not realize what they were doing wrong...

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In fact, the mass do not realize what RPG means in the first place. You're part of it, your choice. I'm glad it's not mine.

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Originally Posted by Ravij

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The only problem was that it could be played both ways, and people bite each other's head off as if their life's work was just destroyed. But seeing how both parties have the right to end it or farm it, neither can complain. But they do anyways. I find the nerf necessary just for the sake of holding the community together that was over-reacting and bursting at the seams. I honestly won't be surprised if they buff dungeon or levemete experience to compensate for those leveling all classes on a single character with limited choices.

Whether it's considered an exploit or not, I couldn't care less. But the hatred it bred was ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Radamanthe

In fact, the mass do not realize what RPG means in the first place. You're part of it, your choice. I'm glad it's not mine.

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And I don't think you even realize what it means. It means Role-Playing Game. So if say, this FATE was done with a bunch of In-Character Role Players; Simply barreling through to the end is not what we do. If we are opposed by several crowds of mobs that seem almost endless, then we would push "in-character" as a unison until we get to the end. Think the 300 Scenario of the Spartans protecting themselves in a dome with their shields fits this case nicely. The push would be slow; but we'd eventually get there.

When In-character life or death is played as a real deal. It's like watching a Movie; the characters die if they screw up or go barreling head long into battle.

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Originally Posted by Ravij

And I don't think you even realize what it means. It means Role-Playing Game.

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What's your role exactly ? Dancing on the floor while I take care of killing bad guys ? Granted.

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Originally Posted by Radamanthe

What's your role exactly ? Dancing on the floor while I take care of killing bad guys ? Granted.

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While I fancy a little jig at times; No. I hurt things, that's my role.

to go to DD with the excuse that they need a fate to complete so are going to end it.

the way i see it is if you have 30 people asking you to stop what you are doing and you keep doing it, you are griefing. you are continuing specifically to take away from those 30 people, and you should be reported and punished. DD farming isn't a secret, you know exactly what your doing when you go there to kill the lambs, and you are specifically trying to complete this particular fate instead of the dozen other ones available, so you can ruin other people's game play.[/QUOTE]

And you are a douche bag. The simple fact is that even the players who aren't farming it, well they will want to complete it once as quick as possible with a gold medal because it has an achievement attached to it. So in all honesty both sides need to accept the fact that the fate system is really fucked up and try to be civil to the other players they encounter who aren't doing exactly what you are doing.

Lol well you all got your wish good job fighting that good fight people.:rolleyes:

Why are people still discussing, it got nerfed, end of the line, you guys abused your littl explo...fate while you could, now its over ;D

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Originally Posted by MitArgento

Why are people still discussing, it got nerfed, end of the line, you guys abused your littl explo...fate while you could, now its over ;D

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Congratz would you like a cookie

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Originally Posted by Ravij

While I fancy a little jig at times; No. I hurt things, that's my role.

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Adding a signature to clearly state that you are a v1.0 player (as if RP had to do anything about that and as if it was putting weight on your arguments overall) only
strengthens my thoughs about your mindset http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...ilies/cool.png

This thread is absolutely hilarious and I think it perfectly outlines the biggest problem with this game. Overwhelming elitism.

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Originally Posted by Radamanthe

Adding a signature to clearly state that you are a v1.0 player (as if RP had to do anything about that and as if it was putting weight on your arguments overall) only
strengthens my thoughs about your mindset http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...ilies/cool.png

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Sorry; your statement is rather confusing. Try rethinking it in your head and type it over.

Also I had been meaning to add that I was a V 1.0 player since there was confusion about it in an earlier thread that I posted. I eventually had to post proof of my 1.0 character to get it cleared up. Sadly my 1.0 character was lost by SE when they were doing the free server transfers in Phase 3 of Beta and I've been fighting to get it restored.

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Originally Posted by Ravij

In conclusion it's both sides that are at fault. The Grinders of whom road rage their fingers into oblivion, and the accusers who purposely end a FATE to spite the lot.

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No, both sides are not at fault. It's the fault of the Fate grinders because they were taking advantage of the Fate in an unexpected way. You do realize that doing the Fate in that manner was against the objectives of the Fate right? Apparently not. People who ended the fate "early" were simply playing the game the right way.

Before you try to write a comeback, remember that the devs nerfed it, therefore they agreed with us that it was out of line.

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Originally Posted by coffeerox

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The game is an ever changing landscape. And just because it was working as intended doesn't make it balanced (And thus will be balanced later). The people arguing they were ending the fates early because its the objective are arguing for the fact they were ruining leveling for other people. There is no way around this. People value time more than anything else (at least smart people do, since it's the one thing in life you can never get back). And when they want to level quickly and efficiently as the MAJORITY of people did and one or two people decide they wanna get off on pissing them off, its not the majority of people in the wrong.

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Originally Posted by coffeerox

NBefore you try to write a comeback, remember that the devs nerfed it, therefore they agreed with us that it was out of line.

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Just because you can only think of one cause for the correlation you observed doesn't make it the cause. Since it wasn't being used unexpectedly (and they'd have to be the rookies of the century by the way, to not-realize that an endless group of weak enemies spawning in a single spot might get farmed for xp), as confirmed in this thread, another likely reason for the nerfing of it might be that the community at large proved too immature to handle it. As usual, whenever there is a group activity that can be ruined by others in any way, people decided to ruin it (under the pretense of white-knighting for SE), and I'm sure the ****storm of cheating and harassment reports over it demanded some sort of action.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonJenn

The FATE event Dark Devices is being used to effectively power level players by intentionally avoiding completing the objective and farming the endlessly spawning monsters that are not relevant to the completion of the FATE.

This can lead to many problems down the line if it is allowed to continue for one having a massive playerbase of all capped individuals will lead to several issues with content development rates and quality.

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Its worse than that.... in 1.0 they let people powerlevel 1-50 in a day.... making many 1.0 players have max all toons.... Me ... I played till 40 Pug in 1.0 ... and did the rest starting in 2.0 ... I gotta agree with you that DD is being abused hard! I didnt even use the zone until my 3rd 1-50 run in 2.0 ... but wow was it abused hard and now others are being used just the same ...

Best resolve is to have all "trash mobs" just that - worth garbage EXP.

If you kill a chain of 1,000 Mobs worth 10 EXP each - you just wasted your time, now didn't you?

The issue isn't so much how it's being handled, it's the fact it's not being handled. If they made a FATE arena where all you had to do was survive for 20 minutes- it would be different. But that's not how any of these FATEs are currently designed, thus the Chain Combo + EXP mob chain being "normal" is the problem.

Set the exp to 10 and watch the exploitation stop in it's tracks.


I know of 1 person on my server who abused DD so much - they are 50'd in all Battle Classes.
This would be alright if it were say, 6 months into the game.. but 1month and some change? at this rate the quit rate of being 'bored due to lack of new content' will be massive

what's wrong with grinding mobs like normal MMO's ?

I mean.. ask any XIV player - levels were not an EASY thing to obtain, especially when you were "nearing the cap".
Most players took over a FULL YEAR of playing EVERY DAY to reach the elite status, but with these kind of broken, exploited game mechanics, you can max EVERY attack class in less than 1 month.

Keep in mind they planned to release "new content" every 3 months - and you clearly see the problem. 1 month - all 50, 2 months of "boredom" usually leaves a player leaving to another game.

You may see it differently, but I clearly see Game Mechanic Exploitation, and playing games for over 20 years, Testing them for over 15, I refuse to sink so low as to follow the sheep for quick gains.

What ever happened to the Journey? Why are all of you making it the Destination?

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Originally Posted by Kissker

What ever happened to the Journey? Why are all of you making it the Destination?

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Well, its a journey many of us have undertaken many times before. The journey to grandma's house is never as magical as it was the first or second time, then the journey becomes routine. Most of us already know how MMOs work, the mystery is gone. I remember when I was first playing Anarchy Online, I didnt know what a guild was, what a raid was, what a dungeon was, why I would want to be in a party, what a healer or tank was, it was all new and fresh.

Also if you've already made the journey on one lvl 50, you have less content to do on your second. For all it's faults, I actually think Secret World had a great idea on making many of its missions repeatable. I used to love going back to the Maine zones and going through the missions there, watching the cutscenes again, it was an enjoyable experience. I actually wish I could replay the story missions here.

The problem with the XP Gained by FATEs like the way DD used to be is that it's efficient but breeds a whole lot of stupid. It creates a legion of terrible players that everyone will end up grouped with through the Duty Finder (Telling me to always use my FC is a cop out. Everyone has to use the DF at some point). It creates toxic behavior up to and including telling people to self-terminate because it impedes someone ability to push one button and "win" experience levels. It ruins the gameplay experience for those who are playing for the story...Telling someone they can't watch their cutscenes because it will slow down a CM/Prae run by 5 minutes and then proceed with the aforementioned toxic behavior is beyond belief.

Your journey may be over but there is always someone else experiencing it for the first time. Telling them they can't experience it because you already did isn't right.

This is not the fault of Fates, its the fault of the end game and having end game currency tied to a story dungeon like CM/prae, and truthfully the fault of the current culture of online games of this type. People will ALWAYS look for the most efficient way to do something and if its a story dungeon, they will try to find the quickest way to do that dungeon over and over. Now they could add diminishing returns to a dungeon for a particular day to try and force people to do others, there might be alot of backlash from that though.

On the flipside if they didnt have this endgame currency in the story dungeons what incentive would people have to run them a second time? Sure some might just like to see the content again, but I would venture that most wont. Im already hearing of problems for dps finding groups for the lower dungeons because people have little to no incentive to run them again after they already have a lvl 50. The only reason I run them is to help my FC members who are just starting, through.

Also, if dungeons become the fastest way to level, do you think the majority of people are going to put up with a new healer or tank who's learning the role? No they are going to want the pro tank/healer/dps and berate someone who isnt performing perfectly. The Faters with the bad attitudes will just infect the duty finder.

Do I care which is the fastest way to level? nope, im happy either way, but I do want people to look at things realistically.

If you were as realistic as you claim you would acknowledge the fact that FATEs like Dark Devices brought out the absolute worst in people. Whether it was those exploiting the endlessly spawning mobs or those who ended the FATE early it was nothing short of pointless rage. No other FATE in the game would have people telling other people to commit suicide because it stopped their quick XP gains. No other place in the game was such a calibre of excessively unnecessary virtual violence, and for what reason? The lazy (you call it efficient) people were mad that someone who may not have known what the sheep did killed them and ended the precious exploit.

You claim its not FATE related...But it is...The people who made 50 24 hours after the game launched were either legacy players or people who spent time in FATE parties where everything was about "Quick and Efficient" and to hell with anyone who did things differently.

Realistic - Lazy =/= Efficient

Dark devices certainly did bring out some of the worst in people, I, frankly, was disgusted by some of it. But i've also seen that in so many other groups in so many other games, that its hardly surprising. If you took out FATEs completely, the attitude is still going to be there, its just going to shift to another area of the game. If the game never had a single FATE, it would have still been there, maybe not as publically since it was broadcast over shout, but it would be there.

I farm at DD because it's more fun that just sitting there and doing nothing.

Once upon a time it used to take years to level up, then it took months, then it took weeks. Now, today, it takes days and people still complain.....

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Originally Posted by Taemek

Once upon a time it used to take years to level up, then it took months, then it took weeks. Now, today, it takes days and people still complain.....

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I miss those days. Corpse runs in an endgame dungeon. If you didn't get your corpse back in 7 days it disappeared from the world and all your weapons/armor you had equipped were gone. Hardcore servers where if you die, your character is deleted....you kids have it so easy now.

"Back in my day I had to level all the way to 50 both ways, uphill, in the snow, doing corpse runs in dungeons, with exp loss"
/nostalgia

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Originally Posted by Oxide_Vanwen

Actually sir you would be the minority. Most people would rather grind dungeons instead of FATEs if you took a look at the rest of the forums.

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I love how that's the only thing you took issue with.

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Originally Posted by VidulaSaix

While I do agree that this exploitation is doing more harm than good, it's sadly the only choice we have at one point.

Eventually you'll run out of quests to do and will be left with nothing to do but FATE's, Dungeons or Leves and the former 2 give very poor experience for the time they take.

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Yeah you run out of story quests. You don't run out of FATEs, Levequests, dungeons, guildhests. I leveled to fifty and did this FATE twice.

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Originally Posted by benwithvees

I farm at DD because it's more fun that just sitting there and doing nothing.

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Typical reductio ad absurdum fallacy.
I do A because I disregard B.

Since when was smart and efficient equated to bad and lazy? If this was such an exploit people would have been banned. They nerfed it due to xp balance issues and idiots, good for them, there is still other ways to farm exp at astounding rates, svara for instance. I would rather them fix bugs, re-balance classes and fight mechanics, do something about the red circle issues and fix real exploits than worry about something like this when Yoshida had said in an interview this was not an issue at the time.

Considering the level people had to be to do DD, saying this made bad players that do not know their class is naive. between the story dungeons that are forced on you for any sort of functionality other than running on foot and farming fates, and the main story being used to gate you to each game function I find it hard to believe DD is the cause of the incompetent DPS, Tanks, and Healers that plague this game.

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Originally Posted by Taemek

Once upon a time it used to take years to level up, then it took months, then it took weeks. Now, today, it takes days and people still complain.....

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Tell me about it.

Actually, I do believe they nerfed it because of this part of the service agreement. 2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any unauthorized cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software or hardware designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay. which is why on sept 9th they implemented this patch.... -Changes have been made to the behavior and mechanics of the enemies found within the “The Wanderer’s Palace” and “Amdapor Keep” dungeons to counteract instances of players running through the dungeon without engaging enemies on the way to bosses. As advancing through dungeons without defeating enemies is not an intended strategy, we plan to continue making further changes in the future to discourage this type of behavior.

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Originally Posted by davidwbean

SEE Above

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Honestly the only people who got the FATE nerfed are those who were doing it in the first place, sharing the fact with everyone, then got ignorant and greedy and began being verbally abusive to those who were trying to complete it as intended.

LOL
Honestly I don't care if it exploit or not. What I care is that ppl spam me when I want to finish FATE asap.

I am not sure if I have ever done Dark Devices, I am not sure where it is - but I have not seen people fighting in Shout so I guess I missed it somehow?

Anyway, until a Developer says that this is an actionable Exploit, then it simply is not something a player can complain about on those grounds. I can see why you could be upset about not getting to complete it, I can see how this might disrupt your levelling (but if you are grinding FATEs anyway I don't see why it matters which one it is). I understand how it has a negative impact, but you can't just say IT'S WRONG AND ANYONE WHO DOES THIS IS BAD AND /BLACKLIST.

What if people are participating and don't even know it? I just Tab+Bio and scroll through enemies without even looking. If the people around me were "exploiting" I would not notice until the timer ran out and we failed. So, would all the people around me /BL me simply for being in the group?

You say the people using this loophole are poisoning the community, but really, it seems like everybody who is riding on their high-horse and trying to control how other people play are just as guilty - if not MORE- because they advise others to /BL and there are very real consequences for the community as a whole as a result.

Good luck using the dungeon finder when someone in your party has a bunch of people /BL you won't be able to have them in your group and you will have to wait that much longer. All you are doing is hurting yourself in this regard.

Leave the judgments and punishments to the developers. Your $15/month is no more valuable than anyone else's.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonJenn

The FATE event Dark Devices is being used to effectively power level players...

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I thought the mobs were supposed to act as a decoy... like you would kill the followers and wonder "why isnt the fate progressing?" and then later realize it was the lambs that needed to die.

Regardless of that, i think youre totally wrong about this. People would do better to power level by doing fates than dark devices, considering it only pops once every 30-60 minutes and lasts 15 minutes. The most xp you can net is roughly 200k, and thats if you have an all aoe group, and youre not competing with another group. When other groups are there you cant get nearly as much xp. Not to mention, you can literally get all jobs to 50 on your own in less than 2 weeks if you play 12-16 hrs a day.

I also don't believe you really know how this could impact the game. It's easier to level than most games, so the model is built to handle people meeting the cap faster.