-Pet AI is not balance(and it's generally fine)Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuraiking
-Customization of pet bar is not balance/Not an intended feature afaik(that's why we can put pet skills on our normal hotbar)
-Obey is working as intended/not related to balance
-More like other classes(specifically DRG, MNK, and especially BLM) need to be buffed up to SMN/BRD levels. We have burst comparable to any other job. 725 potency in the first 3 GCDs.(MNK either just needs a longer timer on GL or a ranged attack to refresh GL timer, their actual DPS is fine)
-It's actually easier because after we apply the DoTs and Fester a bee, we can switch to the other one and still have our DoTs ticking on the first. This isn't balance, though.
-You can bypass the 1000 limit by editing.
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09-22-2013, 08:50 PMKevee
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09-23-2013, 12:26 PMCrevox
Refer to main post. The balance is off when a pet is never, ever useful.
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09-23-2013, 12:55 PMKeveeThe pet is ~20-30% of your DPS and provides contagion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
It is useful. If you're talking about Ifrit-Egi, it is the best solo-farming pet and provides a niche of an on-demand stun(if for whatever reason no one else in your party has one). Titan-Egi is useful if you're undergeared for a dungeon, or leveling/questing while taking on multiple mobs.
Not to mention a lot of what you post in the OP is wrong.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Rydia
Oh, look.
Bio, Poison, Drain, Osmose, etc.
There is no one "summoner."
They are all vastly different and you just can't accept that. Summoning wasn't the focus for Eiko, Garnet, or Yuna either. They were all better off doing other things, not to mention they functioned completely different. That's just the "summoners," too. Summons functioned differently in XI, XII, and XIII.
No, but when it's different in XIV it's wrong?
Get real. -
09-23-2013, 03:13 PMCrevoxNo. It's not. There's no reason that makes it so, either. Hence, the main post.Quote:
it is the best solo-farming pet
I've got to remember to stop taking people so seriously... -
09-24-2013, 12:43 AMKeveeYes, it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
Things die too fast for contagion to be useful, you don't want garuda pulling things out of your AoE, and the auto attack is stronger than Garuda.
Go farm Apkallus and tell me Ifrit isn't the best for it. -
09-24-2013, 01:24 AMKarnage720
Maybe you guys can help me out, instead of me starting a new thread, I see here that Fester does great damage but when I use it, Im only doing a little over 200. Im only 38 so I dont know if that is normal or not. I usually do Bio 2>Miasma>Bio>Fester>Thunder. Am i missing something?
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09-24-2013, 05:19 AMKeveeMake sure to delay the Fester after Bio until AFTER Bio is present on the mob. If you cast it as soon as possible the Bio debuff won't be up, and Fester won't do full damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karnage720
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09-24-2013, 07:33 AMYanktastic
Glad these forums are so full of debate regarding this class. It would seem that some of you fell into the same 'summoner trap' that I did.
Ive been playing MMO's for a long time and I generally purchase and install the next new flavor of the month title and play it for at least a little while. Being said, my all time favorite job/class was Summoner from FFXI. And that one job and its play style has kept me going back to FFXI every year or so.
Ive parsed top 100 on world of logs as heals, tanking, and dps for WoW. Ive participated in local tournaments for SC2. But the thing that kept me coming back to FFXI Summoner wasn't about some DPS epeen chart. I didnt care that I wasn't top dps. I didn't care that I wasn't top heals. I didn't care that I was never going to get a merit party as a summoner, or that my dynamis leader always gave me crap because I wanted to raid as a summoner. Sure I would play my BLM/RDM/etc when the LS needed it, but you better believe Im jumping at my chance to play summoner first. You know why? Because I loved the class, because I loved the play style, because I payed my sub, and because IDGAF predator claws was awesome. That the emphasis was put on the Avatars and not the summoner was what kept me coming back.
The summons themselves were what was amazing, not the caster.
Imagine my delight when I heard that Summoner was going to be added to this game. 'Awesome' I thought, 'time to let those Avatars, GF's, Aeons, whatever they are in this game do work!!'. So Ive waited a while for SE to get out the launch bugs, and for the launch to iron itself out.
And that's where I fell into the 'trap'. I expected Summoner to be the unique class and play style I loved from FFXI. And if not a carbon copy, at least something similar. I expected my summons to be awesome. And it would seem some of you did too.
It isn't. I find that what I have is a cut and paste Warlock class from World of Warcraft. Don't get me wrong, there is NOTHING WRONG with locks in WoW. Its a fun play style. Dotting someone up in PVP and standing around while they try to save themselves is great. Casting while moving away from boss mechanics in raids? Fun for everyone!
Some of the player base (for example Kevee who is no doubt waiting to reply to this in the same 'LOOK HOW GOOD MY DPS IS, YOU'RE A BAD PLAYER' response she has every other post) doesn't get that for me, that's not what Summoner is about.
I'm sure you parse top 10 world on HM Throne of Thunder Fights, and you no doubt carry your team to perfect victories in LoL Challenger tier. And for you FFXIV Summoner is a well oiled DPS chart topping machine. But for me and it would seem some of the other players, I came in with a base expectation of what the Summoner class was all about and at the downright very least I expected the summons themselves to be interesting.
They aren't. The fact that Summoner is a dot class is irrelevant. The first time I saw Garuda flying behind someone in Limsa Lominsa I couldn't believe it. I actually zoomed in to see if SE just went ahead and stole the character model from the WoW imp as well. I came in with the base expectation that the summoned elementals would be the focus of the class. I thought they would make the same battlefield splash that they do in every other Final Fantasy title. They don't. They aren't even interesting to look at and they aren't the focus of the class like I thought they would be. Yes Kevee, Ive seen your numerous posts. 20-30% of my dps!! That's great. Its so awesome I'm going to go get a kitten and name it kevee. Im thrilled summoner is on top of the DPS chart (finally!!). But for gods sake SE, at least make the class revolve around the summoned entity (lol at the comment Yuna didnt revolve around her summons). Make the summons fun and engaging. A lock clone wasn't what I was looking for, and wasn't what I expected to get.
I will continue to play this (30 dollars is a more than fair for how many hours it will take to reach level cap), but for me at 50 im done. I fell into the trap of expecting something from the class and then seeing my expectations fail to meet the reality of this 'check the block dot class' summoner.
You want to go P2P SE? Fine. My love for the FF series merits at least a look at the game. But if you want my monthly sub you need to go in and take a hard look at what you think a summoner should be, and what this class in FFXIV is. -
09-24-2013, 08:45 AMKeveeIt's not just about DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanktastic
Summons are, and always have been, only strong from a LORE perspective. Mechanically, it's always been better to do other things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
In this game, they just made the lore match the mechanics without completely nullifying the summon itself. -
09-24-2013, 08:59 AMInosaskaThis man deserves an award for such a well written post and honestly completely agree with him on every single point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanktastic
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09-24-2013, 11:23 AMKarnage720Ok, just tried it on a dummy in case I was doing it wrong, it did 264 and I'm lvl 39, what am I missing here. It crit for 394 the second timeQuote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
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09-24-2013, 12:45 PMYelh
The pet isn't a must have, sometimes i'm playing without my pet, because i totaly forgot to summon him or notice he was dead... :o and i'm still doing well lol
Btw all class can summon a chocobo to fight also, make them SMN too ?? -
09-24-2013, 11:58 PMpandabearcatQuote:
Originally Posted by Karnage720
264 damage at level 39 doesn't seem that bad.
Most of our damage is from weapon damage...even your GC weapon at 50 will provide a huge jump.
Keep in mind fester isn't "the super nuke" it is just, for us, our hardest hitting single ability.
Looking that the tooltip for it will show you that it has 300 potency at 3 dots. Which means...its great, but not THAT great. Its not going to blow BLM nukes out of the water, in fact, quite the opposite.
I think its roughly equivalent to a 3 stacked Fire 3.
EDIT: just to give an example, I have a GC weapon and mostly DL, when I fester I do about 650-700 damage on bosses. With RS and a crit, I hit for about 1200. -
09-25-2013, 12:53 AMKarnage720Ok got it. I was expecting like 400+ or something. I just got RS and that 20% does help a lot. Apart from thunder and rs, is there any other class ability I should get?Quote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
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09-25-2013, 01:29 AMpandabearcatSwiftcast from THM is a must, surecast can't hurt (though I never use it) and sometimes, with a pug tank, you may want to pop quelling before you spread dots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karnage720
Really we get screwed over for cross class abilities. -
09-25-2013, 04:04 AMKarnage720Damn, I was hoping I didnt have to lvl THM. People say SMN is boring, they must have never lvled THM.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
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09-25-2013, 06:29 AMDenkish
SMN is OP as fuck. I got full DL BLM/SMN and DAMN SMN just kicks out that damage! Did AK in 33minutes BEAT THAT
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09-25-2013, 07:09 AMCrevoxThis thread isn't about SMN's DPS, it's about it's design concepts and other flaws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Denkish
(also, AK in 33 is really slow...) -
09-25-2013, 09:11 AMryan92084
I'm still trying to figure out why we have so much accuracy on our gear. I have never noticed myself miss and I'm not sure most of our abilities can so what is the deal?
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09-25-2013, 10:07 AMhallenaCoil. You'll probably want even more accuracy for that placeQuote:
Originally Posted by ryan92084
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09-25-2013, 10:26 AMPrinceOfNeptune
I completely agree with this, and would like to add that the Scholar class feels more like a pet focused pet managing class than the Summoner does.
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09-25-2013, 10:45 AMshinrosYup indeed and thats why I am quite upset actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceOfNeptune
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09-25-2013, 02:22 PMAdvisorX
TOTALLY AGREE!
REMAKE UlT plsss~ SE! I beg u! either increase the dmg and aoe so that it really looks like a good ult. or reduce cd.
5 minutes for 200-250 potency dmg. =.='
P.S. make our pets looks cooler and stronger. They look kinda puny and weak.
And maybe add an inventory for our pets. SO that we can equip our pets with weapons or amour! This will be awesome.
In the future, i reali hope that we can actually have more pets. So basically, maybe we can actually choose between 2 or 3 pets for summon III. This will be awesome! -
09-25-2013, 11:02 PMDeezelbring back the old school smn!!
Coming from FFXI, I'm very disappointed with smn in this game. SMN in FFXI kicked way more ass. The summons looked way better and everything was mostly done through them, remake please!
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09-26-2013, 07:47 PMCrevoxI'd honestly be happy with any changes towards the better of SMN... doesn't even have to be a full remake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezel
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09-26-2013, 08:48 PMYuufarlc
I agree with the person who quoted the way FFX and Yuna handled summons, the summons became another "character" you could call forth and teach its own set of skills and mechanics, the funny thing is the required system already exists in game with how chocobos are handled, the potential for diverse summoner builds is fantastic esp[ is you limit the number of "skill points" that could be used globally over ALL your summons.
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09-27-2013, 12:02 AMAlphalegend
I agree, I never felt like I actually gained anything besides a different pet going Summoner. That's why I ended up favoring Scholar. It is just so much more pet dependent. When I think summoner I was thinking like summoning multiple pets or at least a pet with more than 4 abilities that are nothing more than an extra attack every so often. The DoTs I feel don't really make sense for a Summoner. I would much rather of had them deal unelemental magic damage like ruin, ruinga and have the ability to summon multiple pets to deal their elemental damage. With only 2 pet boosting abilities it really seems like the pets were an afterthought for them. Still kinda baffled by the absence of a ruinga spell for summoners but alas, we just play the game unfortunately we are dealt the hand we are dealt.
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09-27-2013, 02:13 PMCrevox
Scholar is definitely much more pet dependent than Summoner. Scholar doesn't rely on its pet as much as a real Summoner (FFXI/whatever other game you choose) would, but it's still much better than our current Summoner. Scholar has to work with its fairy as a partnership... Garuda is a "decent" damage support to you, rather than being a partner in dealing damage.
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09-27-2013, 02:44 PMJocko
There's also one major issue holding SMN back (Though it may change given their recent stance on class roles come 2.1) and that's their insistence on pigeonholing classes into roles. SMN has been labeled as a DPS, they will joint parties as a DPS, and will be expected to act as a DPS when doing so. That means that their pets will largely, you guessed it, act as DPS. When I think 'Summoner' I conclude 'toolbox'. Having a bunch of utility for different situations. Sadly with forcing classes into roles, Summoner can't really fit that description.
However, there is one potential saving grace for Summoner down the line; We have a lot more to gain from level cap increases than other jobs. For every increase of 5 levels, other jobs get one new skill and one or two new class skills. Summoner differs in that our pets have skills of their own. Perhaps they'll become more diverse and meaningful with the addition of unique abilities? And on top of that we'll get new pets as well, presumably at -least- 3 more. Hopefully with some feedback and the room for updates, they can really turn this job around in the future -
09-28-2013, 10:32 PMCrevox
Summoner can still have useful utility; right now they only have a few things, like Virus, Eye for an Eye, and Blind. They could have much more, especially enfeebles like paralyze since we're supposed to be "enfeeble magic users", but for some reason it fell short.
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09-28-2013, 10:48 PMKeveeSource?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
Or is this another biased predisposition from a prior FF you particularly enjoyed?
Because this is the lore from the main website:
I'm still waiting for someone to answer these:Quote:
The beast tribes of Eorzea worship and summon forth beings known as primals, among which are Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan. Yet what is a god to one man is a demon to another, for the city-states of Eorzea see these beings as a grave threat to their collective survival.
In times immemorial, there lived mages who had not only the power to summon the primals, but also the means to transmute the primals' essences, thus binding them to their will. Known simply as summoners, the existence of these men and women and their arcane art have been all but lost to the ages.
What is a Summoner? Why is the FFXIV Summoner, not a Summoner?
Nobody has been able to answer except for personal anecdotes.
Want to know why? There is no defined Summoner. There is no, "THIS is a Summoner!"
They have all been vastly different, both mechanically and from a lore stand point, not to mention mechanically a "Summoner" using summons has never been optimal, or sometimes intended, in their actual gameplay(Eiko/Garnet from IX, for example. They have summons, but it's more of a "side" to them).
With that in mind, I'll ask for an answer again.
What is a Summoner? Why is the FFXIV Summoner, not a Summoner?
Don't answer with personal anecdotes or rhetoric. "It was more pet-based in XI!"
1) This isn't XI.
2) Summons were different in XI compared to all other FFs. Never saw someone complain there, especially when they were all very weak for a very long time(except for every 2 hours). There wasn't some big uproar about being a worse WHM, so why is there this uproar here? -
09-29-2013, 03:25 AMLostCody
never played any mmo if you don't count runescape from when I was younger.
so I am coming into ff14arr fresh faced and free of any nostalgia for older games(Atleast mmo wise)
I have too say I am loving the smn class so far,From the dots too the looks of the smns(they could be bigger maybe1.5x times)and I feel it all comes together nicely and is a ton of fun.
that being said I do have some quirks about the class.the most obvious is the inability too control the pet while casting,its beyond annoying and needs too be fixed.
I feel like I would love too see more debuffs with the class maybe they can tie them into the summon,i don't know but I would love too see more of them other then virus.
also maybe having more skills based on the pet besides a heal and the just do more damage skills would be fantastic.maybe have set of toggle abilities that add certain buffs too your smns like how songs work for bards but just for your smn.
but overall I love the way the class works and im enjoying every minute of waiting in the duty finder too play him. -
09-29-2013, 04:45 AMHawklaserThis has actually been gone over numerous times already. The reason XIV's Summoner does not feel like a Summoner is entirely because the Summons themselves don't feel like they should. The Summoners have been different in each game, but the Summons have stayed mostly the same. You don't agree with many of us on the usefulness of the Summons and I am not re-opening that can of worms, however they have almost always felt the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
Using Ifrit as an example here, since he appears in many FF games, he is known for having a strong fire based attack around the time you gain access to him(rarely does it keep up with endgame spells though as he is often one of the first summons gotten). In XIV, the Primal Ifrit is what Summoner fans expect Ifrit to be or feel like, the egi comes no where close to meeting that expectation for a couple of reasons.
First outside of enkindle, the egi has no fire based attacks. Second enkindle has a long cool down, gotten very late, and barely keeps up with a BLM's spammable Fire 3. Which means Ifrit-egi has barely any connection to fire other than looks, and the signature move feels absolutely horrible to use when know that a BLM can pretty much do the same all day long.
Which makes the Summoner lack the feel it should have, and that feel is why many people wanted to play Summoner. People who want to play Pld expect it to feel a certain way, same with any of the other jobs as well. If this was not a FF game, there would not likely be the disconnect on the feel of Summoner, however FF Summons are expected to have a certain feel to them. And that feel is more important than their strength. -
09-29-2013, 04:53 AMKeveeIfrit-Egi embodies the theme of Ifrit from previous FF, so I don't know where this is coming from. Enkindle, the stun, the AoE Fire attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
And then what else? A reflect shield. What does heat/fire represent? If you touch it, you're going to get burned.
This isn't Ifrit, by the way. It's Ifrit-Egi. We never could, or were planned, to summon the primals. At all. To expect Ifrit, when from the beginning of the reveal it's been stated otherwise, is asinine.
It seems to me that your post is mostly directed at a visual nature. -
09-29-2013, 05:45 AMHawklaserIt has nothing to do with the visual aspects of it. Titan is actually more known for the stuns than Ifrit. Enkindle, which is not tied to any Summon in particular, is what causes the Egi to use Hellfire, a signature attack of Ifrit, that seems to be really underwhelming in its current iteration and therefor does not feel right. The reflect shield also feels very out of place on something tied to Ifrit, even with the loose connection you provided. Ifrit is known for two things, offense and fire, which the Egi barely touches on both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
And to get even more on the feel of the Egi's being off, the only non-superficial difference Emerald Carbuncle and Garuda-Egi, and Topaz Carbuncle and Titan is Enkindle. And the only differences between Titan-Egi, and Ifrit-Egi besides Enkindle is 20 extra potency, order get skills, and instead of damage reduction get a damage reflect. The Egi's might have better base stats than the Carbuncles, but that does nothing to make them feel right.
We don't expect the Egis to have the same power as a full blown Primal, we expect a certain feel that is lacking. The Ifrit-Egi that you have to fight to unlock Summoner had that feel to it, but the ones we get to use do not. As if you don't take out the nails in that fight fast enough, he will come over and just blast you hard enough to likely to one shot you, a lot like Primal Ifrit does. Difference there is even if get rid of the nail, Primal Ifrit will still take out a heafty chunk of your health.
Maybe to get you to understand this better, imagine THM's job unlock being Thief instead of Black Mage. It would not feel right at all, even if it was implemented very well. -
09-29-2013, 07:34 PMCrevox
The definition of DoTs in 1.0 were "enfeebling magic" and they were enhanced by "enfeebling magic potency." The original concept of Arcanist, described in letters from the producer/etc, was that they would specialize in "enfeebling magic."
And, by all means, we currently do. But at the moment, our utility could be stronger and more broad to make things more interesting. -
09-29-2013, 08:00 PMFuz
Meh, I expected a classic Final Fantasy summoner... and they gave us a WoW Warlock clone.
It's not a weak class at all, but it's boring and uninteresting. -
09-29-2013, 08:27 PMKeveeAnd this is exactly where my previous post was correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
You are unable to accept the fact that, hey, Summoner changes.Quote:
Or is this another biased predisposition from a prior FF you particularly enjoyed?
It has changed.
And the change in FFXIV is something you don't like.
However, say you don't like it. Don't say it isn't a Summoner.
To add to this, why didn't you, or any other person, complain in FFXI? Summoner's were abysmally weak, except every 2 hours. I can take a guess. I'm guessing people dealt with it because the Summons just looked like carbon-copies of the actual beings. I mean, after all, you are complaining about "feel"(power, from your post), and arguably the Summons in FFXI were weaker in comparison(except every 2 hours).
I mean, Ifrit boosting the power of everyone in the party, not himself, is certainly Ifrit, right?
Shiva and Ramuh giving Ice/Thunder Spikes is what they should be doing, right? What about Shiva KICKING/Slapping the enemy? Certainly, THAT is Shiva?
Leviathan healing/dispelling the party is what it should be doing, right? Or Leviathan lowering the enemies attack?
Please. None of that is what a "Summoner" or "Pimal" embodies, if we go by what you say, but no one complained. Even so, I'm fine with it. I'm fine with what XI did with Summoner's. I'm fine with what XIV did with Summoner's.
Want to know why? I accept that it changes. I accept that there is no single definition of a Summoner. I accept that, over the course of the games, a Summoner has not always focused on Summoning. I accept each "Summoner" within its own universe.
For FFXIV, Summoner fits. It's fine the way it is. -
09-30-2013, 12:14 AMHawklaserI have no issue with changes, however I also understand the importance of how something should feel when playing it. If it doesn't feel and look right, a major disconnect happens. Names go a long way in establishing expectations. I rather enjoy ACN, the problem here is SCH feels more like a SMN than SMN does. Summoner is not the only job this happens to in XIV either, Bard has the same issue but to a much lesser degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
Guess what, plenty of people complained about the state Summoner was in for XI for balance reasons, not because of a disconnect with the over-arching theme that people like playing a Final Fantasy Summoner for. And I was all for Summoner getting adjustments it sorely needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
This whole thing is not about the Final Fantasy Summoner archetype being changed slightly, but the fact that this iteration of Summoner does not fit that archetype for many. Which makes it a thematic problem, not a gameplay problem. They could of called XIV's Summoner a number of different things and avoided this all together, but they called it a Summoner which comes with certain thematic expectations. Everyone's ideal Summoner is going to be different, but one key thing people that play Summoner don't want is an insignificant feeling and totally forgettable pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
Unfortunately, there is no easy way to fix a thematic problem like there is with balance problems. The fact that few have an issue with ACN, but only with SMN illustrates that it is a thematic problem quite well. Consider any other job or class within any ongoing base setting, the name alone is tied very closely to the general expectations of how it will play in the future, just consider the difference in play styles the names Warrior, Berzerker, and Barbarian bring to mind. Mechanically they could be identical, however they are always thematically different. And there are people out there that pick classes just for that thematic feel. -
09-30-2013, 12:23 AMKeveeLast I heard, FFXIV is a Final Fantasy game and can develop it's own archetype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
If you don't think so, what is the Summoner archetype?
Also, there is no over-arching theme(Besides creature that is "summoned" does things). Just some people say there is, when really they just have a bias towards certain Final Fantasies.
It's not a thematic problem. They are introduced in the lore as such. It wasn't a thematic problem in X, from the shift of EVERYTHING prior. Both from altering your party, to directly commanding them, to them ultimately being useless. The overall theme changed with X.
-Pet isn't insignificant feeling. Simply because people don't look at the numbers, that doesn't mean they are insignificant.
-Totally forgettable? For the lore that is established in XIV, and the fact we don't summon the actual primals, I like the designs. They are sleek, and pretty cool looking. People are saying, "Man, why can't we summon something like Garuda?" -- Well, it wouldn't make sense to summon something that looks like it when we just use an essence of power. Image can reflect power. For summoning an essence, the Egi's do a great job of getting the theme of the primals.
-If a name is tied closely to the general expectation of how it will play, why do you want it pet based? If anything, it would be burst casts where the summons make an appearance for a strong attack, and then go away. So..We would essentially be a BLM, but with "super cool Summoner visuals."
Again, you are putting your bias into your analysis.