Community name "Gathering Fatigue"

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Originally Posted by Burn

Coming up with crazy systems like fatigue in general is just poor poor design, I don't care what the intentions of the system was or why it was thought to be a good idea to hamper legit players.

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"Hey everyone, look, I don't know anything about game design!"

Hint: RMT is not the only nor the most important reason for this system.

The thing is Betel.... Anti-RMT is the only reason they stated for this system.... So it is their only reason for having it. You may have found your own reason for it being their, but it isnt the developers reason.

Putting words in someone elses mouth is obviously easier, also the listing of 150 sucessful gathers before failing is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Reika

The thing is Betel.... Anti-RMT is the only reason they stated for this system.... So it is their only reason for having it. You may have found your own reason for it being their, but it isnt the developers reason.

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To be more specific, the community rep stated this was the reason. He/she was reporting from one of the devs, who most likely spoke to them in Japanese. So not only is there a translation and associated "chinese whispers" barrier to cross, but we have no idea if the actual dev was even trying to be complete in a justification. Rather, it seemed the comment was more intent on explaining how it works rather than why it needs to work.

So RMT is certainly a reason why gatherer's fatigue exists, but there has been NO indication if this is or is not the only reason. My bet is on the multi-purpose weaponry.

Oh don't try to call 'miss translation'... one of Gildrein's jobs is to relay info from the Dev. Team. Which is what he did. If they said more than just Anti-RMT, he would have added more.

"As a countermeasure against RMT activities" Is the only reason placed, until he comes in and says there is another reason THEY put it in, it is the only reason. We can create our own reasons if we wish to help justify it, but they aren't the reasons of the Development team

Well regardless it's keeping you from getting what you want, which is something you shouldn't have and don't deserve.
When the materia system comes out you'd better believe I want that cap keeping the poopsockers from running away with everything from the field.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Oh don't try to call 'miss translation'... one of Gildrein's jobs is to relay info from the Dev. Team. Which is what he did. If they said more than just Anti-RMT, he would have added more.

"As a countermeasure against RMT activities" Is the only reason placed, until he comes in and says there is another reason THEY put it in, it is the only reason. We can create our own reasons if we wish to help justify it, but they aren't the reasons of the Development team

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Oh no, not mis-translation. Highly unlikely, but possibly a lack of clarification and/or interpretation in what we were asking about in the first instance. Remember that Gildrein made his comment when there was still this huge mystery about how gathering fatigue worked and when it kicked in with our desire to understand it. The bulk of the message was about how it worked. It could be quite possible that the devs didn't understand that we wanted it so badly justified as well. I mean, seriously, who would possibly be against RMT measures? I wouldn't be surprised if demands for the system to be justified didn't even enter their minds at the time. Of course, the topic has moved on to these other matters since then.

So let's take each dev's comment into it's context and hope for another one to clarify this separate issue.

My main complaint about this type of fatigue is that it's completely contrary to the idea of being able to play how/when I want. Instead of being able to spend a day or weekend fishing/mining/logging all the way to fatigue (like I'm allowed for DoW/DoM/DoH jobs) I'm forced to gather a few hours a day or every other day.

If nothing else I'd argue that this 'fatigue' should only start kicking when you go into surplus/fatigue.

(And is it possible to never hit this inivisible quota if you fail every gather attempt?) I've seen r1's mining g4 spots and wondered if that was their intent. (that and failed sp is still pretty nice)

They are planning on removing the whole surplus system anyways tho. Else that would be good if you start breaking things more one you hit the regular 'grinding too much' fatigue.

Heya!

For now we have to live with the Surplus system, as I've read that they might actually remove it. There's one thing possible to do at least when we hit surplus: BEAT THAT F*CKING TREE EVEN MORE!!! or just pass to another class.

Personally, when I hit Surplus I'm used to change class and have even more fun by playing the other class, as I don't care a f*ck about SPs, as there's not a race about who's the best on the server and what else.

We can say, until they might remove the Surplus system, to deal with it like we'd like to. I prefer the changing class =D

See ya!

This thread makes me cringe every time I open it and it's always the same posters who just don't get it and fail to listen to reason. So we just go round and round trying to educate kids on basic game design who think their opinion is the only one that matters.

Oh and I hope they don't remove surplus or craft botting will be ten times worse than it is now. People will take a craft 1-50 within a week. Get rid of the bots first and then we can talk about this again.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

This thread makes me cringe every time I open it and it's always the same posters who just don't get it and fail to listen to reason. So we just go round and round trying to educate kids on basic game design who think their opinion is the only one that matters. Oh and I hope they don't remove surplus or craft botting will be ten times worse than it is now. People will take a craft 1-50 within a week. Get rid of the bots first and then we can talk about this again.

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It's less education. They never learn because they're not ready for that kind of concept yet. One degree of indirect causality is impossible for a teenager and even most adults who are stuck in concrete operational thought, so long as there is any more direct effect that these people want. They are, in effect, unable to see the big picture. It's well documented in psychology, to the point where you have to actually model your education around COUNTING on them being unable to understand the reasoning. This isn't about education. They'll either grow out of it into formal operational thought processes or they won't. You have to protect them from their irrational thought regardless, because it's dangerous to everyone.

It's about protecting the game from their ideas and ensuring that the proper what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-that-idea-sucks is displayed for everyone to see. JUST so we're on the same page and no one gets the idea that this idea is remotely plausible.

If some Square Enix intern screwed up enough to get some of the September launch into the game, they're inept enough to listen to Reika et al and shoot themselves in the abdomen. Right now Square Enix is acting like a dad who never listened to his daughter, and now after the inevitable divorce is trying to buy love by giving the kid anything she wants.

A lot of these players who don't know what's best for the game have detected that Square's trying too hard to please its individual players and are trying to press their luck to see what they can be handed out.

Demanding that the gathering yield restrictions be removed is SORELY trying to press your luck. No. What a stupid idea.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ll=1#post81792

Try again.

If you actually tested anything in this game properly you would know the limit is already lower than 150 successful gathers before damages show up.

They are willing to make big changes to the game and players have shown they are willing to take those big changes. DoL/H is one of those.

Nope you are making money so the system is fine, there doesn't need to be any changes at all.

Your own opinion doesn't change how the game was designed and normal fatigue is already on the chopping board.

I'm also still waiting for these other games that supposedly limit how much you can gather in any given day.

You also can't seem to tell the difference between good and bad game design.

This thread is still amusing to read.

Like a soap opera. :p

I can see why this system is in place. altho very frustrating for those who play alot. I look at it this way, the system is in place to limit items on the market for a simple reason the crafting system multiplies all over the place, for example 3 copper ore + 1 tin ore = 12 brass nuggets / 2 = 6 brass rings or chokers, so 4 starting turns into 6 in the end if they just let people farm with no cut back, prices on ore will drop like a rock and even if you just make rings and sell them to the vendor you will make far to much gil for it to even mean anything. fair prices on upper end items will mean nothing because with how easy resources would be to get, also having a high lvl craft would mean nothing if they did not limit gathering in the long run.

I couldn't really care less about the argument Peregrine and Tiraelina have been having in this thread....I can see points from both sides but I think the real problem with the system is the double SP penalty...you have the class SP threshold, and then you have the threshold for gathering items that the dev talked about in this thread...

I think a good solution would be to make it so that you can still get the SP/EXP for the items until regular thresholds sits in (by counting it as a success) but saying something like "The item is low quality and crumbles as you extract it!" That way you don't get the item but you get the EXP/SP, which means that it isn't such a pain to level a DoL class compared to DoW/DoM. (EDIT: Or if they just increased the SP/EXP gains from getting the materials that you reach the 15th threshold when you also reach the item cap....I think this wouldn't work as well, though, because you'd get a ton of SP/EXP per node . . . DoL would probably level up much faster than a DoW/DoM if it were like this, which isn't much of a problem since they can't do much besides gather but still is a bit weird).

From what I've done since Friday night (not much), it's easier to get gil from farming drops off monsters (such as marmot pelts in the low level areas) than it is to get gil from farming materials from DoL nodes...especially since you can easily vend drops from monsters for quick cash but you have to go through the trouble of selling your DoL drops through your retainer for the best money. Additionally, since the changes to the gathering system, it seems that it's harder to actually farm nodes with a good success rate (what I mean by that is that it's hard to get what material you want to from specific nodes, as least from what I've read). This results in DoW/DoM having an easier time making gil and leveling.

So ... overall I think I'd be happy if they allowed you to continue gaining SP/EXP without getting an item. I don't really care if I get less items from Mining as long as I can still level up for actually doing the work ... I think people who want the item cap to be removed are just being a bit petty and not realizing that there is a good reason for the cap being there (or several as it is).

I agree with suzaku. The ore crumbles on extracting is a great idea. its already hard enough to hit 50 on gathering jobs but to add this into place as well just hurts general players.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I couldn't really care less about the argument Peregrine and Tiraelina have been having in this thread.... I think people who want the item cap to be removed are just being a bit petty and not realizing that there is a good reason for the cap being there (or several as it is).

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So...you do care and are in favor of removing the sp double nerf, while keeping the production limits. That's basically the position of the majority of veteran gatherers in the thread, and really the only thing that needs touched unless we want to start talking about nerfing gathering and cutting production.

Which is also needed but not right now. I'm for an enhancement of sp gain but a cut in production.

Do you think they already succeeded in curbing the supply of higher tier materials in the 1.17 update? It seems to me like it's not possible to reliably gather in g5 until r43 now (when all of the sweet spots in the approach phase get nailed down), maybe it's a short term band-aid.

Well...I just read from post 1 to 259. I must say there are only few persons that makes sense in this entire thread. Peregrine is the only one that really understands basic economics and supply and demand. I suggest you ALL go back and re-read this thread...or at least his posts. Its utterly insane to remove gathering fatigue and would ultimately destroy the economy. I don't know how many explanations you need, that is given in previous posts. The people that say remove that cap is just plain not educated enough on the concept of how supply and demand and the basics of an economy and market.
The only other cries I saw was about DOL skillpoints. Personally I don't use DOL but sure I can see some people taking DOL as a main class or full time (I see it more as a support class). No problem with that. I do not see a reason why there would be a nerf on DOL SP. Would like to hear a dev's explanation for this one.
As for fishing...yes this I think definitely needs to be re-looked at. Looks like handful of people enjoyed the Goblin Bounty Hunters from XI. I thought it was a great idea and enjoyed watching the bots get killed too! Gave me a feeling of hahah take that botters! and also was reassuring to know that SE and dev's are doing what they can to battle RMT.

Had to look it up, here is a classic video of fish bots from FFXI getting killed by a banshee (not a goblin but still justice is served!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46lGxsZ9_D4

Also all you people think that RMT countermeasures are here to STOP RMT for good. That is not why there are here...they are in play because it deters such activities. I don't think any game would be able to stop RMT completely. But for most games...SE is one that takes a serious look into RMT and will act accordingly and implement ways to battle it. You should be grateful that SE is doing such a thing. Look at these other games, you have people shouting all day on the main world chat.

For real...if your hitting those caps, take a break dude. You play too much =D Maybe when more in-game content is released and we have more things to do people won't be so hardcore on the gathering and synth and will be able to do other activities instead of just one or two.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

So...you do care and are in favor of removing the sp double nerf, while keeping the production limits. That's basically the position of the majority of veteran gatherers in the thread, and really the only thing that needs touched unless we want to start talking about nerfing gathering and cutting production.

Which is also needed but not right now. I'm for an enhancement of sp gain but a cut in production.

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I care about the problem the argument is about, not the argument itself :P Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I'd love to see a cut in production, cap everything at 1 item per gather. Make gold 2-3 times as rare too. Game needs an economy and that's only going to happen if raw materials aren't handed out like candy. But I'm not convinced the current economy can be saved due to the amount of mats people are sitting on. Big changes need to be made to ensure the economy works going forward. All this gil needs removing too. Add some expensive mats that can only be obtained via NPC. Hopefully the devs will fix the economy after the battle changes.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

I'd love to see a cut in production, cap everything at 1 item per gather. Make gold 2-3 times as rare too. Game needs an economy and that's only going to happen if raw materials aren't handed out like candy. But I'm not convinced the current economy can be saved due to the amount of mats people are sitting on. Big changes need to be made to ensure the economy works going forward. All this gil needs removing too. Add some expensive mats that can only be obtained via NPC. Hopefully the devs will fix the economy after the battle changes.

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Maybe if they increased the taxes for Market Wards? Something like 20% for out-of-proper-ward and 10% for in-ward?

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Maybe if they increased the taxes for Market Wards? Something like 20% for out-of-proper-ward and 10% for in-ward?

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That would just drive the economy to YG and shout/tell based. You can't penalise players with gil sinks, it has to be beneficial to spend your gil on that.

Yes, they need to remove the 3 and 5 caps and make them 1 per strike.
They also need to remove gems from mining and have gems solely made via HQ of quartz from quarrying

Yes, that drastic. It's THAT glutted.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

That would just drive the economy to YG and shout/tell based. You can't penalise players with gil sinks, it has to be beneficial to spend your gil on that.

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There needs to be more gilsinks though. Especially with all the gil sources. The main problem with the economy is how much gil there is.

Guildleves give waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much gil, especially for something that can be done 8 times every 36 hours.

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Originally Posted by Zephy

Do you think they already succeeded in curbing the supply of higher tier materials in the 1.17 update? It seems to me like it's not possible to reliably gather in g5 until r43 now (when all of the sweet spots in the approach phase get nailed down), maybe it's a short term band-aid.

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Nope, restricting it by rank is not a good way to restrict items. There are more than enough R45+ miners that can easily glut the market without the hordes of R20and 30's out there. No one is rare. No one is excellent. The only way to make mined materials rare is to make THEM rare and excellent. There are too many of us, no matter what level.

I have heard that the sweet spots are way more chaotic than they used to be. Our other shell's goldsmither says that he's losing a lot of gold becuase it's all over the place even with way more vitality than I have. It was never all over the place for me. About a quarter of the time it was just in "the other spot" if it wasn't where it usually was.

But still, there are enough R45+ miners to glut the gold market themselves, even if you take gold away from everyone under45.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

There needs to be more gilsinks though. Especially with all the gil sources. The main problem with the economy is how much gil there is.

Guildleves give waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much gil, especially for something that can be done 8 times every 36 hours.

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Rank 30 and 40 leves just shouldn't give any gil at all. Have them all give marks. Let new players get some gil from the lower leves still. Have all local leves give marks, but lower the amount each leve gives to compensate.

Whoever designed the economy in this game had no idea what they're doing. There's dozens of players per server now with over 100mil gil and that will take a long time to be removed from the economy.

Does the gathering fatigue connect all 3 DoL's?
today after my fishing tour i wanted to do some Botany, but it sucked bad, while logging i had like 1 chance to hit the right spot, anything over that was an instant fail.
and sometimes while hitting the right spot on first try it was a fail anyways.

can somebody clear this up for me?
i was reading the dev post, and i somehow fear that i can only gather like 250 items in total before being unable to get any more.

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Originally Posted by Black_Rose

Does the gathering fatigue connect all 3 DoL's?
today after my fishing tour i wanted to do some Botany, but it sucked bad, while logging i had like 1 chance to hit the right spot, anything over that was an instant fail.
and sometimes while hitting the right spot on first try it was a fail anyways.

can somebody clear this up for me?
i was reading the dev post, and i somehow fear that i can only gather like 250 items in total before being unable to get any more.

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They are not connected, I routinely fatigue 2 DoL and rarely 3 in one day. Doing one has no direct impact on the others. And no, the fatigue system doesn't apply to total items, it is based on the total of successful gathers. At 150 total successes you begin to risk a successful action resulting in a damaged haul of items, and these become more common until by the time you've collected the 250th success, you can no longer gather anything successfully within the same class, until some time has passed.

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Originally Posted by Black_Rose

Does the gathering fatigue connect all 3 DoL's?
today after my fishing tour i wanted to do some Botany, but it sucked bad, while logging i had like 1 chance to hit the right spot, anything over that was an instant fail.
and sometimes while hitting the right spot on first try it was a fail anyways.

can somebody clear this up for me?
i was reading the dev post, and i somehow fear that i can only gather like 250 items in total before being unable to get any more.

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They are not connected, I routinely fatigue 2 DoL and rarely 3 in one day. Doing one has no direct impact on the others. And no, the fatigue system doesn't apply to total items, it is based on the total of successful gathers. At 150 total successes you begin to risk a successful action resulting in a damaged haul of items, and these become more common until by the time you've collected the 250th success, you can no longer gather anything successfully within the same class, until some time has passed.

Basically the 'double whammy' regarding the skill pts gain is why i quit playing FFXIV since i had decided to become a dedicated DOL, so effectively I would never hit surplus because it was nearly impossible to reach the surplus in the first place due to the constant fails and reduced experience, on top of then non-working "special" abilities such as the ones for crystals, to me this was inexcusably a TERRIBLE design choice to impose on gatherers in my opinion.

To Elaborate further, the item limitation is a band-aid vs RMT, but i still understand why it is there, notably creating other characters bypasses this limit

I would propose for the sake of not making the game TERRIBLE to do one of the following:
-Change fails into proper full sp gain and still fail to give the item but with a proper explanation (your clumsiness from overworking destroyed the item)

-Change the mechanic to give LESS ITEMS ON AVERAGE to put it more in line with the limitation and remove the fail mechanic entirely, this would most likely be less liked by players on average however (IMO should have done this from the start instead of some underhanded/sneak RMT counter on top of the already advertised systems)


BTW: this has been going on for a very long time, proof
http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/26612...atigue-hidden/

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

Hello fellow adventurers!

To clear up your questions, we have checked with the Dev. team and found out the following.

As a countermeasure against RMT activities, the probability of gaining items through gathering will start to decrease after repeated attempts over a long period of time. After a certain number of attempts, items will no longer be obtainable through gathering.

To explain a little more on what goes on behind the scenes, there is an internal counter which measures how often a player has attempted gathering activities. Players will start with a maximum pool of 2,500, which will decrease by 10 each time a gathering attempt is successful and yields an item. Once this number decreases to 1,000, players will find it harder to obtain items. At 0, items can no longer be obtained through gathering.

Stopping gathering for some time will bump this number back up. The recovery rate is currently set at 100 per hour.

If you have ideas and feedback on this topic, please don't hesitate to let us know.

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Gathering Fatigue is just as bad as Skill Point Fatigue. Players should be able to play at the pace that they would like to play at. A personal war against RMT's is a very bad business model to have. Every MMO will have RMT's no matter what. Finding ways to decrease RMT's while reducing negative impact on customers play style, is difficult to do. However, player penalties, in an attempt to detour RMT's will only, and HAS only hurt player subscriptions. I promise, as long as there is a soft cap in place, i will never take up a gathering class in this game.

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Originally Posted by Draco

I promise, as long as there is a soft cap in place, i will never take up a gathering class in this game.

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Then don't.

We don't want greedy gatherers who want to flood the market with their crap and make every gathered item worthless. If there was no fatigue I'd take my botanist out at midday and go back to Ul'dah at 3am with about 500 walnut and yew logs. Half a dozen other people do the same and then you've got 30 stacks of logs competing to be sold for one day's production. Not a chance in hell more than 300 of those will sell so by the end of the first week you're going to have about 150 stacks of each log up for sale with a price that has gone from 10k per log to 1k per log.

We don't want players like that. If you don't like gathering, tough, don't gather.

It would be 10 times worse if SE removed the fatigue and then you still wouldn't gather. You'd be bitching about how all the items are worthless or how you've now got to do 10 hours of gathering instead of 2 because SE had to balance the rate items are given. Then everyone else would be bitching too.

Sometimes it's not good to have your own way, sometimes it's better to shut up and play the game or do something you enjoy, in this case a class that isn't a gatherer. SE can't tailor their game to what YOU want because that isn't what I want, what someone else wants or what the majority want. They can't please everyone but they do know game design better than you do and they will tailor the game to what they think is best for everyone. Feedback from players helps, but again they aren't going to listen to everyone because they can't make a thousand different versions of FFXIV. They still have to make the final decision and decide which feedback is good and which makes no sense from a design perspective.

Sometimes it also helps to read the damn thread rather than just one post, because this argument has been done to death now and I'm sick of repeating myself to people too lazy to read more than one or two posts.

Look, I was not posting this as to serve my own agenda. Facts are facts, and that is all that I was responding to. On my server, Selbina, which is one of the highest pop servers on the game, only about 2 people have max mining, botany, and fishing. That is only about 2, out of about 2 thousand. If that is not a problem, or something that does not warrent a comment, I dont know what is. I can see, since you have Rank 42 Botany, that you are willing to spend ours upon ours, and days upon days just to gain one level at the higher ranks due to Soft Cap. I personally, and thousands of others do not have your time or commitment. I also understand your not wanting the current system to change, as it is this current system that probably allows you to make millions selling Mahogany Logs to Carpenters and other crafters that are lacking in the commitment and playtime that you obviously have. Ridding of soft cap would give others equal footing and an opportunity to gather in a more enjoyable and rewarding environment, of course, at a loss of gil to you. And no I did not read the other 27 pages of this post, because just like botany, i obviously lack your commitment and free time to keep tabs on one single topic.

I don't know what you're talking about. At 42 I could probably gain about 25k SP at grade 5 in about 2 hours before I hit fatigue and then if I choose I could gain another 12k or so from leves. That means I could gain my rank within about 3 days. I have MIN at 42 as well and my BTN was 15 when my MIN was 41 but I ranked BTN up so quickly. SP is super fast until about 42ish. Leves are your key to fast SP when you hit 5, 15, 25 and 35. It's so fast I'd call it broke in the lower ranks you get the leves (I got 7k SP off a tree once) but let's not talk about nerfing anything.

I don't disagree SP needs a boost for ranks 22-25, 32-35, 42-50 as well as failed gathers in fatigue and I have been pushing that throughout this thread like most people but you make it sound like you want to be able to gather unlimited items.

Only two people on your server are rank 50 in BTN, MIN and FSH because it's insane to want to take on 3 gathering classes. Most people simply have no need. I always intended to just do one but then I wanted to be a CRP so I took up BTN. If I do fishing it will be for gil only, but that's a retarded reason to do it when you've got more gil than you can spend.

PS. I've not sold a single mahogany log because that's not where the money is in BTN. The money is in walnut and yew logs, which can be found as early as grade 3 for walnut and 4 for yew. You can rank up BTN to 28 to hit grade 4 in about 2 weeks. You can be hitting that walnut up at 18 in grade 3 within a week. Try it. Use your leves on it, use your guardian aspect on the leves.

I think it was important and correct from SE to do something against RMT from the beginning and i think its correct to do something against item floods. I think the items somebody gets out on one day with a gathering class is really enough to craft with for this day but i think SE should do this in a diffrent way. its ok to dont give an item at every sucessful strike/chop but they should not mark this as missed strike/chop cause you only get half xp. with the fatigue you can only make 15k a day (in a long time playing so its hard enough) and then youll get almost nothing. just calculate how long youll take onky for the last 2 levels.

PS: This is like the copy protections on DVDs. The people who want to copy will crack every new copy protection in a few days and the people who bought the dvd got propblems with playing them...

soooo with the achievement system out.. and the gathering fatigue still in place. does this mean that we cant just burn thru the achievements? i mean when i damage goods, does that NOT count towards the number? if so, gathering got a real blow this turn around

Holy necrobump Batman!

Do not worry! Complete failures as well as damages both count toward the achievements. Anything that would grant you exp (assuming you were actually low enough leveled to get exp from it, that is) will count toward the achievements, meaning the only thing that doesn't count is the fishing 'nothing bites' message.

the fatigue system is in place but its pretty hard to get to now, I wouldn't worry too much, but ya as said, success and failure count