Are we destroying "our own" game?

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Or just have Cure 1/Benefic 1 upgrade to Cure 2/Benefic 2 like they should have from the start.

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That doesn't fix the problem, you'll just have cure2bots instead.

you do not pay my sub you do not own the company so why act like you do i am staying with this company and you trouble makers can just plain get lost.

Less destroying and more so I think people are just growing past FFXIV. The game still has a solid player vase and I am sure they have many people that do enjoy the game.

Just one of those things where a game may just not be for certain people anymore. That is not SE's fault or the players it is just a progression of his things go sometimes.

It seems to me people are just being overly harsh on Wuk Lamat (who's not perfect, there's some stuff I don't like but overall she's just okay)
And then the rest of it is just the usual General Discussion forums bitching about people having their panties in a twist about this problem or the other. People complaining about the difficulty was pretty funny for a while.

Endwalker was a tough act to follow, and I think that's one of the really big reasons why Dawntrail felt less impactful.

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Originally Posted by Akari-skts

Yeah I also liked the "not being main character" aspect tbf. But thats just a taste thing I guess :D

I play the game on german so maybe thats also part of why I have another feeling about the story? Especcially Wuk Lamat seems to be hated by many (englisch playing) people.

Also thanks to everyone for the replies, appearently the forum grew BECAUSE of bad feelings not vice versa.. sad tho :(

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im going to say the Japanese player base isn't too happy about it either for the most part. there have been quite a few negative take aways from their side of about the expansion. I put the game down for a bit i literally got bored of the story. There isn't anything to keep me going on what happens next.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

There's not being the main character, and then there is being relegated to cheerleader forced to like something. Literally, the few times we can respond with something other than praise to Wuk, another character chimes in saying that the WoL is happy or supportive of Wuk. We weren't the main character through SB and even HW through most of their campaigns, but we were still not simply a cheerleader.

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I was hoping the more "sassy" answers would stay when we had a few of them in the beginning half; like telling Wuk that "ideals are nice in theory" when she dragged us to outside the palace to talk about peace yet again, or saying that "Wuk wasn't ready to rule" when Gulool asked us for an honest answer. I pretty much lost hope once we talked to Bakool and even after the game forces you to answer that Bakool's story doesn't absolve him of his crimes; Wuk comes in and goes "lets be friends", and his crimes have now been absolved instantly and we just agree with it and it's done. Why give us an option to say something that literally is made irrelevant 5 seconds later? Eventually the sass is just kinda...gone, and now if the options involve Wuk, it's just praise and support.

Like you said, in Heavensward and Stormblood we weren't the "Main" character. We were a side/support character, but we still actually DID stuff to help out. Daichi Hiroi though really let his theater side out with Dawntrail: basically turning our WoL into an audience member at a theater play who is there to just watch. I didn't mind being on the backburner for Dawntrail, I was kind of welcoming it given how drained Endwalker's MSQ and Post-Patch MSQ made me from how they were written. The issue is how they went about doing it. I know they had to "wrangle in" our character given the threats we slayed in Endwalker, and how if we actually took charge in Dawntrail everything would be completely effortless and done in no time, but the fact they decided the best way to wrangle us in was to literally have our character do absolutely nothing unless required along with being a forced yes man cheerleader for Wuk Lamat the entire expansion is just terrible design.

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Originally Posted by Akari-skts

Browsing through the forum here and watching Youtube videos I clearly see how people seem super unhappy with the new Expansion.
Playing the game for myself and also in my fc and social groups I did not experience that feedback for quite a while.
I never checked this froum in the past and just came here recently to look for the "community voice" but.. is it really that bad? Are people that mad about DT or was it always like that in the forum? Maybe someone that observed the forum for a few years can tell me.

I personally think DT is fine story wise.. sure it may not be peak epic but I feel like it is quite good. I was entertained especcially for the last part of it.

The content imo is great. It is more entertaining than in the past and we now even can wipe here and there, which is often funny. People are saying it is too hard but idk isnt it exciting to have a look at the boss while doing roulettes? (talking about dungeons)

For the raids it is kind of the same. I dont feel like they are particulary harder than - for example - ShB Normal Raids?

Are here any people that actually enjoy the game? And if not.. where are they? I've heard player counts are looking good, and I tbh can imagine why.

It makes me kind of sad hearing all that stuff about "dungeons too hard for me" "raids too easy for me" "story is bad" "bring back stormblood", I have the feeling people are more and more driven into the mindset "Well if everyone says it is bad.. then it must be bad!" until they actually feel that way.

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I am enjoying the story but It has a bunch of generic tropes which is surprising for a story coming from square enix.

Personally i liked the story a lot, up until we hit the Heritage Found. From there on, it is a mess that is full of plot holes that has been shoehorned into too little time, it should have been it's own expansion, or maybe at least 2 content patches. Plot holes like this are also the reason why i'm not such a fan of Endwalker as most other people seem to be.

That said, I like more personal, low stake stories, and I get why others don't. I think this is a big part of how people see the first section of DT's story. I also think it's nice to be in a mentor role for a change, and successfully make our protégé grow. Which brings me to Wuk Lamat, who I like as well, I like here energetic determination. That said, I play with Japanese voice overs, and the bits and pieces I have heard in English, her VA does a really bad job in comparison. In the English voice overs, she feels much more whiney, and doesn't have that determination I like about her.

The complaint about the whole power of friendship thing though: I really hope those same people were also up in arms about Endwalker, because in the final fight there, we also literally get saved by the power of friendship, even more so than between Wuk Lamat and Sphene. And Shadowbringers was the same in some sense too (there it was Ardbert).

And to the people complaining about the repetetiveness of the story with gathering the proofs: Imo Shadowbringer was way worse in that regard with the whole "go to next area, kill big sin eater to bring back the night, rinse and repeat". In DT it's only 3 areas, in ShB it's 5.

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

And to the people complaining about the repetetiveness of the story with gathering the proofs: Imo Shadowbringer was way worse in that regard with the whole "go to next area, kill big sin eater to bring back the night, rinse and repeat". In DT it's only 3 areas, in ShB it's 5.

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Yeah, but each of those individual stories were written better, putting one different scions on the spot each time. Look at how more fleshed out are the Night Blessed compared to any of the DT "tribes", despite also having 2 settlements in Rak'tika. We know of their belief, their way of life, the fact there are divisions amongst them, even their burial rituals.

To me, the whole "the problem is the low stake story" is a false argument. The problem is that every single one of those stories were plagued with plotholes/bad writing that made you wonder how this could even work as a society.

- How do the Hanu² not know about their festival and why is there someone that knows in the village and tells nothing?
- How do the the moblin don't know that putting people to work just next to the fire is wrong and do not know what food tend to suit each race if that system has existed for 80 years. It's supposed to be a working system, not a trial one.
- How do the Yok Huy suddenly agree to let strangers on their sacred mountain... because one was saved from a big bird? I'm sorry, but how can I believe it's a tradition that existed for hundreds of years if they throw it away like that.
- How can the Pelu² race trait can be limited to trading and drinking, and the Hrothgar one be limited to one dish. It feels shallow.
- The Mamool ja is definitely one of the better ones, but still how can they throw their tradition away like that? and if it was not as deeply rooted in their culture and so many wanted to change it, why did it has to wait you arrive for it to happen. There should have already be a shiism to be believable.

Some people pretend it was a worldbuilding extension, but the worldbuilding in DT has been mostly subpar. If you main questions remain "how does that work? how can that society work like that?", you failed at worldbuilding. This is one of my biggest problem with DT. None of those points is fundamentally bad, and with a little more care about them, all of them could have work far better. That's really what bother me, the lack of care the game used to give to that kind of element.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

- The Mamool ja is definitely one of the better ones, but still how can they throw their tradition away like that? and if it was not as deeply rooted in their culture and so many wanted to change it, why did it has to wait you arrive for it to happen. There should have already be a shiism to be believable.

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Not to mention the practice in question is interracial breeding. So...how are they gonna stop that? Stop encouraging interracial relationships? Are the interracial couples already together gonna break up? Or are they gonna just stop trying for children? Will they make interracial relationships illegal?

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

Personally i liked the story a lot, up until we hit the Heritage Found. From there on, it is a mess that is full of plot holes that has been shoehorned into too little time, it should have been it's own expansion, or maybe at least 2 content patches. Plot holes like this are also the reason why i'm not such a fan of Endwalker as most other people seem to be.

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The pacing in Endwalked sucked, but DT is much worse. They condensed two continents and what we now know(only thanks to a Yoshida interview) to be the 9th shard into one X.0 patch.

Dont let the Interwebs make u think weird.
These forums r a tiny bit of the community, most r here to complain or just fight.
Utube is nice but also just a tiny bit of whats goin on.
Sometimes u may think it must b this and that cause u feel like "I only c this kind of complain...".
Its all bubble talk.
Millions of ppls and u only c tiny bubbles.
Dont loose ur head about it.

Greetz o/

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

I put the game down for a bit i literally got bored of the story. There isn't anything to keep me going on what happens next.

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Definitely felt that - Endwalker had an "Avengers:Endgame" vibe and DT coming in like The Eternals really didn't sell me on the threat or characters.

I'm no conspiracy nut but there's a tinfoil hat part of me that can't help but believe the devs intentionally make things braindead & destroy jobs via some strange homologation just to keep us (peasant common folk player base) distracted. Spending our time creating job tiers, arguing, and ranting over XYZ so they can milk our accounts while they make adjustments all year only to break them again in another xpac. Job security 101

Ok tinfoil hat off =)

My tinfoil hat is that they moved all the veterans who made FFXIV good in the first place over to the two other games that Square is apparently making CS3 work on, hoping that they can strike gold two more times, and leaving the game that makes them all their money in the hands of a bunch of overworked newbies who barely get assigned a budget to do anything with. Seems like the kind of stupid corporate decision a company like Square "we love crypto and shitty live service games that close in a year" Enix would make.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

- How do the Hanu² not know about their festival and why is there someone that knows in the village and tells nothing?
- How do the the moblin don't know that putting people to work just next to the fire is wrong and do not know what food tend to suit each race if that system has existed for 80 years. It's supposed to be a working system, not a trial one.
- How do the Yok Huy suddenly agree to let strangers on their sacred mountain... because one was saved from a big bird? I'm sorry, but how can I believe it's a tradition that existed for hundreds of years if they throw it away like that.
- How can the Pelu² race trait can be limited to trading and drinking, and the Hrothgar one be limited to one dish. It feels shallow.
- The Mamool ja is definitely one of the better ones, but still how can they throw their tradition away like that? and if it was not as deeply rooted in their culture and so many wanted to change it, why did it has to wait you arrive for it to happen. There should have already be a shiism to be believable.

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The Hanuhanu festival thing is just the meaning of a tradition getting lost over time, not exactly an unheard of event. And Wuk Evu I think mentions that it seemed awfully rude to go to a people and lecture them about their own traditions.
With the moblins its ultimately a point of pride. If they can't navigate the needs of their pact people without bothering them constantly then they've failed. This is just showing that the system still needs improving and adapting.
On the Yok Hoy and the sacred mountain, do you mean the dungeon or the trial. Because the dungeon we were given permission, but one group didn't like that, and the trial again we were given the go ahead by one group and had to convince the other that actually Valigarmanda is going to be a big problem if left alone.
The Pelupelu as a race and culture got freedom through mercantalism and that coloured their culture, which is actually quite young. And the Hrothgar aren't limited to one dish it's just that one has special meaning.
And the Mamool Ja of Mamook changing their tradition of relying on Blessed Siblings, much like Limsa Lominsa they didn't do that because it was fun or intriguing, they did it because they thought it necessary. However events have shown a path that may well be better for them, so perhaps it is time to let that part of their history go. That and Mamook specifically was filled with most of the conservative elements with most of the rest moving to Tuliyollal, there was a schism it just happened much earlier.

There were answers to these. You may not like them and that's fair, but they are there.

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Originally Posted by Akari-skts

Browsing through the forum here and watching Youtube videos I clearly see how people seem super unhappy with the new Expansion.
Playing the game for myself and also in my fc and social groups I did not experience that feedback for quite a while.
I never checked this froum in the past and just came here recently to look for the "community voice" but.. is it really that bad? Are people that mad about DT or was it always like that in the forum? Maybe someone that observed the forum for a few years can tell me.

I personally think DT is fine story wise.. sure it may not be peak epic but I feel like it is quite good. I was entertained especcially for the last part of it.

The content imo is great. It is more entertaining than in the past and we now even can wipe here and there, which is often funny. People are saying it is too hard but idk isnt it exciting to have a look at the boss while doing roulettes? (talking about dungeons)

For the raids it is kind of the same. I dont feel like they are particulary harder than - for example - ShB Normal Raids?

Are here any people that actually enjoy the game? And if not.. where are they? I've heard player counts are looking good, and I tbh can imagine why.

It makes me kind of sad hearing all that stuff about "dungeons too hard for me" "raids too easy for me" "story is bad" "bring back stormblood", I have the feeling people are more and more driven into the mindset "Well if everyone says it is bad.. then it must be bad!" until they actually feel that way.

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Changes only come from feedback, whether you like it or not, negative feedback. Honestly, why would a company bother to change a product when everyone says, "Okay, I like your product"?

That said, no, no one is "destroying" the game. These are just people unhappy with a range of issues, from the game's story to how their class no longer satisfies them. And if they're giving this feedback, it's because they still like the game but something is bothering them. If they didn't like it, instead of continuing to pay a subscription to "destroy" the game, they would just stop playing and look for something new.

This is a forum where people come to discuss their points, regardless of the post's title. If you're enjoying the game, great! But getting upset with someone who isn't and is expressing their dissatisfaction is as silly as someone doing the opposite. If seeing opinions contrary to your own makes you sad, this isn't the place for you (sorry for being so direct and harsh, but I couldn't find a better way to express myself).

I know you're new here, but there's a lot in this game that only improved after a series of "drama", and just as I know that if you ever get bothered by something, you'll come here to try and point out to the company where changes are needed, others are doing the same today.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

- The Mamool ja is definitely one of the better ones, but still how can they throw their tradition away like that? and if it was not as deeply rooted in their culture and so many wanted to change it, why did it has to wait you arrive for it to happen. There should have already be a shiism to be believable.

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The Mamool part is definitely the most reasonable bits of the story... A lot of their traditions and ways came to be because of the area they lived in.

Gonna have to goto spoiler territory for more in depth noted

The Mamool Ja living in that forest, which for some reason, possibly the meteors which wouldn't really make sense that they would have that massive of an effect... But it had an absolutely terrible balance of the elements which caused almost every type of plant to be completely incapable of growing in the forest area.
As such they were unable to grow their own food, they had to had to get it from somewhere else and with nothing to give in return, they had to resort to taking it by force which lead to their war with the Hrothgar.

I don't remember the specifics on why they ended up mixing the different Mamool Ja types, but because of it eventually the first two-headed one popped up and because of how powerful he was, they started purposefully recreating that so they would have someone who would win the war for them. And that's kind of how that tradition formed.

And as for breaking that, or at least starting to break it, the solution was to bring in new types of crops that could actually grow there and make them able to be self-sustaining.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

The pacing in Endwalked sucked, but DT is much worse. They condensed two continents and what we now know(only thanks to a Yoshida interview) to be the 9th shard into one X.0 patch.

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I remember I decided to skip cutscenes and just watch a video resume of the events up to the last area when I had to escort a Loporrit with epic music in the background while the whole world is burning.

The few hours (yes, hours) I've played of DT, it's been the Loporrit thing but extended to infinity. I've probably advanced a level and I've seen more cutscenes than in ARR. It just made me weight whether I'll skip the cutscenes, or stop "playing".

I got really late to starting the expansion due to IRL circumstances so I'm still not completely through the MSQ yet (lvl 98). I went in being well aware of the criticisms of the expansion and Wuk Lamat in particular. I'm not particularly bothered about not being the main character because for how little agency we have over the course of the story I've never really felt like we're the main character anyway.
Even so, I do feel like there's been a common occurrence this expansion of the camera panning to your character in cutscenes almost as if to remind you that you're still there, which I find amusing. On the subject of cutscenes, this is the first time since ARR where I've begun to physically wince when the screen fades to black to initiate one. Normally, I will go out of my way to read every single text box in the game, I am very interested in the worldbuilding and lore. HOWEVER, while that mentality hasn't really changed here, I do feel like certain cutscenes would have been better as normal dialogue exchanges, if only to cut down on the time it takes for characters to go through their animations. A bunch of scenes feel dragged out when the point could have been conveyed through a couple text boxes. It's a shame because I am interested in learning about what this new world has to offer, but the way things have been written makes it tedious.

As for Wuk Lamat, I don't believe she deserves nearly as much hate as she's been getting. I'm not going to say that Wuk Lamat is a flawlessly written character, I feel her presence in the story is far more meaningful/impactful than Lyse's, and I find her far more likeable. I do see how people might not be a fan of her archetype, but I've also seen a bunch of bad faith criticisms especially with regards to her voice actress (of which I am immediately suspicious of with the use of "Woke Lamat". :/) Either way, I'm praying that they won't pull a Lyse with her and write her virtually out of existence.

At the end of the day, I was expecting SE to really lower the ante for this expansion so I went in with equally low expectations. But I'm gonna see how the MSQ ends here before having a final opinion on everything.

I had my issues with SB but Lyse wasn't really one of them. Wuk Lamat on the other hand I find completely insufferable, she omnipresent at the direct expense of other characters and times the story itself, she's forced into everything fun or that could be considered the player character's moment to do... Anything and she has no character growth at all. Obviously there are people who like her and it's a mystery to me, I really wish she'd never darken my screen again.

Story is pretty bad and that's a shame when it's maybe the strongest point of XIV in the MMO Space.

Thankfully it's still an MMO and content has been really good. The Extremes and the Savage tier are really nice (even if a bit on the easy side) and the game looks gorgeous with the rework.

Now all that remains is to see if they go in a more interesting direction with the coming patches....

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Originally Posted by Akari-skts

Browsing through the forum here and watching Youtube videos I clearly see how people seem super unhappy with the new Expansion.
Playing the game for myself and also in my fc and social groups I did not experience that feedback for quite a while.
I never checked this froum in the past and just came here recently to look for the "community voice" but.. is it really that bad? Are people that mad about DT or was it always like that in the forum? Maybe someone that observed the forum for a few years can tell me.

I personally think DT is fine story wise.. sure it may not be peak epic but I feel like it is quite good. I was entertained especcially for the last part of it.

The content imo is great. It is more entertaining than in the past and we now even can wipe here and there, which is often funny. People are saying it is too hard but idk isnt it exciting to have a look at the boss while doing roulettes? (talking about dungeons)

For the raids it is kind of the same. I dont feel like they are particulary harder than - for example - ShB Normal Raids?

Are here any people that actually enjoy the game? And if not.. where are they? I've heard player counts are looking good, and I tbh can imagine why.

It makes me kind of sad hearing all that stuff about "dungeons too hard for me" "raids too easy for me" "story is bad" "bring back stormblood", I have the feeling people are more and more driven into the mindset "Well if everyone says it is bad.. then it must be bad!" until they actually feel that way.

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It is okay to not like something, it is okay to have productive criticism of the thing you did not like, and it is okay to like parts of a huge xpac while disliking other parts.

Entertainment is subjective, people who dislike certain things about it are just as entitled to their opinion as people who do like those things but people who like those things are far less likely to come here and defend it, they're enjoying it instead.

That being said, to answer your question, no, no one is "destroying the game" by being critical of the xpac or portions of it. In fact, if people some people did not stick around to provide productive criticism after 1.0 the game you enjoy today would simply not exist.

Putting it another way, when WoW players hated Shadowlands did they "destroy their game" or is their new xpac that just came out the best reviewed in a long time because players voiced their concerns either on the forums or with their wallets?

Too me it's funny to hear people say they skipped most of DT. I loved the story. Now Shadowbringers and Endwalker, those were both a snooze fest for me. I even went back throw Shdb and Endw with an alt and still hated it lol.

"we"? No, it's the job balance team doing stuff like the viper changes and the current narrative writing direction

Only Blizzard could kill WoW, and only Squenix can kill FFXIV.

And boy are they on a race to see who does it first.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Can't speak for the rest of everyone else, but the only reason I'm posting here is because I hit a point with DT where I was like "This is absolutely dog water! Surely I'm not the only one that feels this way." And sure enough, people seem to agree that DT is the worst expansion we've ever had.

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you can help by unsubbing. come back when it's good.