The difficulty of Normal Content in this game needs to increase.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

I liked Orbonne but too many times I had a wipe on Cid because someone misplaced the AOE and killed everybody followed by a vote abandon and completely wasted my time.

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Jesus Christ...

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Making the game harder isn't going to magically make people better, it's just going to lose players who don't want to (or cannot) put that effort in. If your goal is to up the "average" then I guess whatever.. but if you're a game company that relies on player retention, then you're probably not going to want to cut player base just to make it so some players don't have slightly slower runs.

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Wouldn't that be a blessing lmao. Less laziness and casual and more "let's get to work" attitude

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Even if we indulge in your vision that everyone who complains about the game being too easy is a dirty cheater in EX/savage, this argument makes no logical sense.

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Makes perfect sense. Dont complain normal content needs to be harder when you cant beat harder content like ex or savage without 3rd party addons to play the game for you. If you have to cheat to win, then you dont get to tell others what they do needs to be harder.

When you can win without addons..Ill listen.

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There is a well-known gap in intensity between those two types of content, so finding EX/savage too hard has absolutely no relation to normal content being too easy. Both could potentially be true. If people cheated in normal mode, you'd maybe have a point, but instead a lot of people complain about a lack of content between normal and EX. If anything your strawman proves that such content is needed.

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Hard mode for scenarios

Criterion \ Criterion Variant

Expert dungeons

Savage

Extreme

Ultimate

MINE ( min ilevel no echo)

Ultimate Weapon Ultimate

POTD / HoH solo / Necromancer title.

You have all the content you need at any difficulty you need.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

As much as I'm pro-addon and meters, I've cleared multiple tiers without any at all, while being the one doing the callouts, on an old laptop with an office mouse and found I even parsed well. And yes, Normal mode content, particularly 8 mans and Experts are a complete utter joke. Mechanically they're fine, but they hit like wet noodles and have no dps requirement. So try again.

These posts just come across as pure salt. If you're behind all the raiders, it's not because they're cheating. If we had no addons, we'd actually be completely fine. The source is you. Endgame content is accessible to almost anyone who wants to try it.

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I think their point is people can't complain about things being to easy if they use cheats to beat what's difficult

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I think their point is people can't complain about things being too easy if they use cheats to beat what's difficult

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Exactly correct.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Makes perfect sense. Dont complain normal content needs to be harder when you cant beat harder content like ex or savage without 3rd party addons to play the game for you. If you have to cheat to win, then you dont get to tell others what they do needs to be harder.

When you can win without addons..Ill listen.

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The fact that you're making sweeping generalizations about the entire raiding community doesn't tell me that you're willing to listen to anything.
You also didn't even adress anything I said in my post, which of the content you listed is between MSQ and EX difficulty?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I think their point is people can't complain about things being to easy if they use cheats to beat what's difficult

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Which is nonsense because the idea that anyone who complains about difficulty also cheats is a complete strawman they made up in the first place.

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The fact that you're making sweeping generalizations about the entire raiding community doesn't tell me that you're willing to listen to anything.

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Not making any at all, its a simple fact. If you cant win without cheating, you arent as skilled as you claim to be, therefore not in a position to lecture anyone else.

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You also didn't even adress anything I said in my post, which of the content you listed is between MSQ and EX difficulty

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You have a range to deal with, which isnt the topic here either.

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Which is nonsense because the idea that anyone who complains about difficulty also cheats is a complete strawman in the first place.

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If they are a better player..why do they have to cheat to win?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Not making any at all, its a simple fact. If you cant win without cheating, you arent as skilled as you claim to be, therefore not in a position to lecture anyone else.



You have a range to deal with, which isnt the topic here either.



If they are a better player..why do they have to cheat to win?

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Funny thing to say when it's all the casuals who use the ERP mods. If you liked RP so much, why cant you do it without mods?

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

The fact that you're making sweeping generalizations about the entire raiding community doesn't tell me that you're willing to listen to anything.
You also didn't even adress anything I said in my post, which of the content you listed is between MSQ and EX difficulty?



Which is nonsense because the idea that anyone who complains about difficulty also cheats is a complete strawman in the first place.

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Personally the bigger issue is a large part of the "lazy casual" players that want the shiny things from the harder content but don't want to learn to play the game competently enough to do said content. That then jump into PF's and such because they want to be carried to free loot making the duty more difficult for the other people in them and creating the horror stories you find online that make other people not want to attempt the harder content thinking it's too hard. I feel like none of the MSQ things that have been nerfed over the years should have ever been nerfed. Honestly one of the goals or purposes of the MSQ should be to help players develop the basic skill set needed to attempt all later content. Something more akin to "We're giving you some wiggle room to learn but you still need to actually DO the thing if you want to continue."

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Funny thing to say when it's all the casuals who use the ERP mods. If you liked RP so much, why cant you do it without mods?

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Half the ultimate afkers in Limsa on jenova have a certain moon plug in mentioned in their bios.



So either erpers are buying ultimate clears or the raiders have started erping

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Not making any at all, its a simple fact. If you cant win without cheating, you arent as skilled as you claim to be, therefore not in a position to lecture anyone else.

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Lecture whom? I believe when people say "I wish MSQ was harder", the goal is to increase their own enjoyment of the game, not to lecture others. Many people in this thread have made posts in that direction.
It's not all about casual vs raiders.

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You have a range to deal with, which isnt the topic here either.

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IMO this is very much the topic because this could be the true solution to many problems listed in this thread.
Basically I think casual players should have their easy MSQ, some people just aren't interested in difficult content, or just aren't interested in the gameplay aspect of FFXIV and with the MSQ gating everything including content such as Island Sanctuary or DoH/DoL activities, it shouldn't be a wall for them.
But sometimes I wish I could relax and use my max level jobs on content less boring than most of what roulette content offers. Expert Dungeons like Smileton were already so ridiculously easy on release day I'm not even sure anyone ever wiped to it. I think Bozja with its slightly increased difficulty was a good compromise.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Funny thing to say when it's all the casuals who use the ERP mods. If you liked RP so much, why cant you do it without mods?

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Please dont be disingenuous. Thats plainly a ridiculous take.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Please dont be disingenuous. Thats plainly a ridiculous take.

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Why is it ridiculous, its a simple fact.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Why is it ridiculous, its a simple fact.

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I dont see a worlds first RP event..do you?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I dont see a worlds first RP event..do you?

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So you're okay with all the casuals using ERP mods?

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So you're okay with all the casuals using ERP mods?

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Nope.

They should not be using 3rd party mods at all.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Nope.

They should not be using 3rd party mods at all.

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Then why do you call my comment a ridiculous take when you evidently agree with it?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Then why do you call my comment a ridiculous take when you evidently agree with it?

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Cases arent parallel. I dont know how you wedge in RP with beating savage content using a specific addon that calls out mechanics for you. 1ts ridiculous. My point stands, DONT lecture us on normal content when others cant beat hard content without addons you shouldnt have.

One is not the other.

Whenever I hear "the normal content is too easy" it really sounds like "I'm too bad to do the hard content", which ends up sounding pretty damn silly. Git gud.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Cases arent parallel. I dont know how you wedge in RP with beating savage content using a specific addon that calls out mechanics for you. 1ts ridiculous. My point stands, DONT lecture us on normal content when others cant beat hard content without addons you shouldnt have.

One is not the other.

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Of course it's the same. You are using third party programs to have a better experience than uninitiated RPers which either drop out or get forced into also using said ERP mods.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Whenever I hear "the normal content is too easy" it really sounds like "I'm too bad to do the hard content", which ends up sounding pretty damn silly. Git gud.

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This makes even less sense than what Vel said.
"Don't lecture others if you can't do completely unrelated content cleanly" is a stretch but I could see the intent.
"If you think content is easy it's because you're not good enough" is so absurd it just leaves me dumbfounded.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

This makes even less sense than what Vel said.
"Don't lecture others if you can't do completely unrelated content cleanly" is a stretch but I could see the intent.
"If you think content is easy it's because you're not good enough" just leaves me dumbfounded.

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Notice the OP said "normal content". Why do you suppose they did that?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Whenever I hear "the normal content is too easy" it really sounds like "I'm too bad to do the hard content", which ends up sounding pretty damn silly. Git gud.

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Oh I can do it if I want to......I just wont be doing it with a dps meter addon that also has a system to tell me where to stand and how to avoid mechanics.

My point is this:

If you have any third party addons to help you in savage or ex or Ultimate, then "git gud" is irrelevant. if / when you can beat said harder content with a clean UI, then Ill listen. Not before.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Notice the OP said "normal content". Why do you suppose they did that?

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No matter what's your prefered activity in this game, you're forced to do normal content at some point.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

If you have any third party addons to help you in savage or ex or Ultimate, then "git gud" is irrelevant. if / when you can beat said harder content with a clean UI, then Ill listen. Not before.

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I implied it before but let me ask again. What do you mean by "you'll listen. Not before"? Why don't you do it now? Do you want proof from each poster complaining that they're able to clear any savage content without add-ons? Do you want me to start a stream just to win an internet argument with you?
I don't agree with Saraide's take on casual = ERP but the generalization you're making is no less ridiculous nor harmful.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Which is nonsense because the idea that anyone who complains about difficulty also cheats is a complete strawman they made up in the first place.

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I think it's more a statement that if the big name people who do Ultimates are all using mods that make it easier, then do they really have the right to state we need harder content? Which I agree with tbh, but I don't think anybody in this thread is an Ultimate raider who also uses those mods, nor do I think all Ultimate raiders use those mods. Especially considering my best friend beat UCOB on a really bad internet connection on a PS4.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I think it's more a statement that if the big name people who do Ultimates are all using mods that make it easier, then do they really have the right to state we need harder content? Which I agree with tbh, but I don't think anybody in this thread is an Ultimate raider who also uses those mods.

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But as far as I know, none of the people who cheated in world first gave their opinion on the matter, so why bring it in the first place? This is just being reductive just for the (explicit) sake of discrediting one side of the conversation.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

No matter what's your prefered activity in this game, you're forced to do normal content at some point.



I implied it before but let me ask again. What do you mean by "you'll listen. Not before"? Why don't you do it now? Do you want proof from each poster complaining that they're able to clear any savage content without add-ons? Do you want me to start a stream just to win an internet argument with you?
I don't agree with Saraide's take on casual = ERP but the generalization you're making is no less ridiculous nor harmful.

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Okay, you're right, that was a stretch.

my real opinion is this. I don't want normal content harder, it's hard enough already for me. And it's not going to change, because I'm willing to bet that the majority of players suck as much as I do, and the devs want the mass of people that suck happyish.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Push people out of their comfort zone, Slowly increase the difficulty of content as the expansions go on.

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They already do.

If you really want harder content, go play savage, CLL, Eureka, any of the other content in the game that gets harder Don't make it worse on casual players.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Okay, you're right, that was a stretch.

my real opinion is this. I don't want normal content harder, it's hard enough already for me. And it's not going to change, because I'm willing to bet that the majority of players suck as much as I do, and the devs want to get the mass of people that suck happyish.

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My longtime friend is as casual as it gets and he finds the game hard enough already, so I definitely understand. I don't care for the idea that casual players have to improve, ultimately games should be fun and not everyone finds their fun in the same place. But there are players like me who wish they'd get something a bit more exciting than roulette content as a palette cleanser between raids. It doesn't have to be done at the expanse of casual players, and doesn't always come from a nefarious place (even though I have to admit TC's post does have elitist undertones).

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

My longtime friend is as casual as it gets and he finds the game hard enough already, so I definitely understand. I don't care for the idea that casual players have to improve, ultimately games should be fun and not everyone finds their fun in the same place. But there are players like me who wish they'd get something a bit more exciting than roulette content as a palette cleanser between raids. It doesn't have to be done at the expanse of casual players, and doesn't always come from a nefarious place (even though I have to admit TC's post does have elitist undertones).

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I can respect that for sure. I'm sure if I played a lot more than I do I might start to think "okay, this is a bit easy". As it is, I'm bad enough that the Dead Ends with a trust was pretty hard for me lol, I wiped a bunch on that 2nd(i think it was the 2nd) boss, it was brutal.

I honestly don't know what they can do to appease the more midcore group, you guys are good enough to plow through anything below the hard stuff, but wouldn't want to have the same reward as the normal players for more effort. Actually now that I think about it, mmos always seem to have a weird difficulty gap between 'normal' and 'hard'. ESO is brutal with that. The open world/story is super easy, and then you have trials/vet content that 90% of the casual playerbase won't ever go near because it's just too hard for us scrubs.

No. I like chilling in the easy content so I can get gear and see the story.

If your answer to people saying they like harder content is "play Savage",

this thread exists

and I can only assume you agree with Yoshida's words and don't care about all the healers that got upset at the implications.

More challenging casual content =\= Savage-level of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

If your answer to people saying they like harder content is "play Savage",

this thread exists

and I can only assume you agree with Yoshida's words and don't care about all the healers that got upset at the implications.

More challenging casual content =\= Savage-level of difficulty.

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I mean regardless of how you feel savage IS the more engaging content. Not an excuse for healer kits but yeah.

I think they have done a good job with Savage raids this expansion.

Pandaemonium 1S and 5S are great for learning savage and can be beaten with Party Finder even as first time raider. Theyre just slightly harder than Extreme. Even if you are a casual player if you follow guides you can get both cleared in under 1 month after you get decent enough gear (maybe 10 ilvl than minimum required). Now it's even easier with people having better gears

So difficulties are fine. The step up from normal to extreme is good enough, then from exreme to first floors of savage is also good enough. The problem lies with actually finding people or parties welcoming enough for new raider to at least try Savage. On NA PF is wild. Not necessarily toxic but people tend to have egos in what should be a group objective. One example of this is lying about prog points just so they can clear faster, in reality they slow everyone down. PF should be the door for players to try hard contents as most probably dont have a set play time for statics.

To me, Pharos Sirius in its 2.1 iteration felt "just right" in terms of difficulty.
It was hard enough that you could potentially time out in it (did a few times in the first week or two), but not hard enough that it was nigh impossible with a random DF group. It was also not an MSQ dungeon so I suppose if you didn't want to do it, you could certainly just avoid it.

OG Pharos Sirius probably has a higher body count than most countries. Would definitely love to see it restored to its former glory and made mandatory in the MSQ. I wish to witness the outpouring of forum rage that will result.

Extra points for that first pull being a really good indicator of how the rest of your run is going to go. Or, you know, just ending the run then and there.

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"Don't lecture others if you can't do completely unrelated content cleanly" is a stretch but I could see the intent.

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It isnt a stretch at all.

Im not allowed to ask if they are using addons, those that have these addons dont talk about it for obvious reasons..but in all truth, from now on....that unspoken question will always be there.

Won't it?

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

If your answer to people saying they like harder content is "play Savage",

this thread exists

and I can only assume you agree with Yoshida's words and don't care about all the healers that got upset at the implications.

More challenging casual content =\= Savage-level of difficulty.

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Lots of healers are happy with their healers. The healer debate is something that has been going on for years and the Dev team is well aware of the requests. The bottom line is the devs don't see it their way. Pretty obvious given they just added a new healer and did nothing to meet the more dps centric crowd.

Relative to making normal content harder we are getting trusts to run most of the msq content. I doubt they will make two versions of that content one for trusts and one for those who want things harder. There is room for more midcore content and they did make Criterion available and one has to wait and see how the new versions of that content are and how they might adjust them based on feedback and content participation.

After all is said and done normal content will remain normal content in my view regardless of those who want things to be harder.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

It isnt a stretch at all.

Im not allowed to ask if they are using addons, those that have these addons dont talk about it for obvious reasons..but in all truth, from now on....that unspoken question will always be there.

Won't it?

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Only for the .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the player-base that cares what other people are doing. People are going to do what they do. Even if someone is utilizing third-party tools and/or addons, that doesn't affect your gameplay at all. That's a them thing.

Broken record here, but a lot of players complaining about wanting harder normal mode content:

A large chunk of the player base are here because it is being advertised as an easy drop-in/drop-out game that you can socialize with friends online. It's a virtual Disneyland, where you wait in line, go through the dungeon and gawk at the pirates.

A lot of these players are housewives/extremely casual players who would just quit and go back to candy crush if it got hard. They aren't here to be some l33t g4m3r, they are here to hang out with friends and have something to do.

YoshiP has been clear on this several times over- if people want to play harder games, they exist. If you want hard content, that also exists in Savage/Ultimate.