Red Mage: I am not a Back line class

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Originally Posted by Kertz

As much as Red Mage has been a part of FF history, people need to remember the difficulties of balancing a jack-of-all-trades class especially in an MMO. They already gave their En spells to MNK, BRD the Buffs. Perhaps if Red Mage focused on Enfeebling it could work. But balancing it was a nightmare in FFXI leaving it either OP or UP. I'm sure its a load off the developers back too

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With mobs having debuff resist now a enfeebling class wouldn't be worth it in a long battle unless their enfeebled lasted longer then other jbs.

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Originally Posted by Kertz

As much as Red Mage has been a part of FF history, people need to remember the difficulties of balancing a jack-of-all-trades class especially in an MMO. They already gave their En spells to MNK, BRD the Buffs. Perhaps if Red Mage focused on Enfeebling it could work. But balancing it was a nightmare in FFXI leaving it either OP or UP. I'm sure its a load off the developers back too

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I totally agree that the "melee + white magic + black magic" combo as their main focus really isn't viable. I play hybrid classes in most games when I can, and I don't think people appreciate quite how difficult those are to balance. I'd be totally happy with an enfeebling "magic fencer" style class for RDM in FFXIV whose primary skills involve debuffing weaponskills and/or spells.

That said, the thing about enfeebles is that unless their duration is super-short, you're not going to spend *all* your time doing that. Buffing is an important part of being a FFXIV BRD, but they spend a lot (most?) of their time dealing damage, unlike FFXI bards. Enfeebling can be a core part of FFXIV RDM while still leaving room for DD or some backup healing. If you gave them access to CNJ and THM as subs there are some tricks you could do around the edges to make it "feel" more like a traditional RDM without trying to make it a full on hybrid. With only one cure spell and the first tier nukes, they're never going to be primary healers or nukers. But, honestly, it could be a simple as giving them a weaponskill or ability on a 30 or 45 second cooldown that "empowers" the next first tier heal/nuke spell to hit more like a -ra spell... that would go a long way towards making the class "feel" more like that hybrid mage without really making it one.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

With mobs having debuff resist now a enfeebling class wouldn't be worth it in a long battle unless their enfeebled lasted longer then other jbs.

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I don't think we really need to worry about them making a debuff class and having it be totally useless for those reasons. I also suspect that they won't want a debuff class to totally step on the toes of the debuffs that other classes have on their WS, and I suspect when those debuffs were selected, they were done so in consideration of what a future debuff class might be able to do.

I could see a situation where more mild debuffs (stat down, slow, etc) could be applied throughout the battle, whereas certain strong debuffs (silence, paralyze, sleeps, etc) were subject to resists and so you'd need to make interesting decisions about when to use them on harder/longer fights.

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Originally Posted by JTSpender

I totally agree that the "melee + white magic + black magic" combo as their main focus really isn't viable. I play hybrid classes in most games when I can, and I don't think people appreciate quite how difficult those are to balance. I'd be totally happy with an enfeebling "magic fencer" style class for RDM in FFXIV whose primary skills involve debuffing weaponskills and/or spells.

That said, the thing about enfeebles is that unless their duration is super-short, you're not going to spend *all* your time doing that. Buffing is an important part of being a FFXIV BRD, but they spend a lot (most?) of their time dealing damage, unlike FFXI bards. Enfeebling can be a core part of FFXIV RDM while still leaving room for DD or some backup healing. If you gave them access to CNJ and THM as subs there are some tricks you could do around the edges to make it "feel" more like a traditional RDM without trying to make it a full on hybrid. With only one cure spell and the first tier nukes, they're never going to be primary healers or nukers. But, honestly, it could be a simple as giving them a weaponskill or ability on a 30 or 45 second cooldown that "empowers" the next first tier heal/nuke spell to hit more like a -ra spell... that would go a long way towards making the class "feel" more like that hybrid mage without really making it one.

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PLEASE PLEASE read my build for red mage

I know many are particular to RDM's style of play in FFXI, however I don't even see it as feesable in FFXIV with the way the system is designed. I only say this because RDM would have it's own set of unique spells and abilities like all jobs (IE: No cross class spell/sub-job reliance like in FFXI), there's limitation to how much they can add to a particular class (IE: No absurd amounts of situational under-powered nearly useless magic spells, but some restriction in utility preventing OP and giving RDM a more focused role/s), and the power of spells/abilities scale with levels (IE: No hardcore deficiencies from lack of tier spells or skill).

As it was FFXI's RDM sort of broke the mold from the more traditional aspect of RDM, FFXIV's RDM will be no different in order to include the focus to the light and dark aspects of their magic and combat skills. I just hope they consider things carefully.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

PLEASE PLEASE read my build for red mage

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Post a link to it, I haven't really seen it myself (unless I forgot or missed it).

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

PLEASE PLEASE read my build for red mage

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I wouldn't consider your job speculations the end-all decider of whether or not jobs are possible. It's a fans request at best

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Originally Posted by Kertz

As much as Red Mage has been a part of FF history, people need to remember the difficulties of balancing a jack-of-all-trades class especially in an MMO. They already gave their En spells to MNK, BRD the Buffs. Perhaps if Red Mage focused on Enfeebling it could work. But balancing it was a nightmare in FFXI leaving it either OP or UP. I'm sure its a load off the developers back too

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Well, the main issue is that the devs in XI never wrapped their brains around the idea of a hard division between RDM's potential roles. That, along with the fact that gear and subjob were supposed to help the RDM choose their role went out the window once gear swaps became the norm (because, surprise surprise, the hybrid jobs would benefit from gear swaps way more than any other job).

That being said, enfeebling is a tertiary class aspect, and as such should NEVER be the raison d'etre of any job. You can tack enfeebling as part of the job and so on, which has been known to work.

On the topic of generalists, you either have to drop/minimize the generalist part of it or implement hard divisions. Hard divisions are not possible because of the armoury system, and as such the only obvious alternative would be dropping the generalist aspect entirely or minimizing the generalist so that RDM has a focus (which compliments the armoury system) while still have a couple of extra things as is par the course with the job. Here and on the Design thread, the focus has been making RDM a magic fencer that happens to have a couple of extra spells up its sleeves when called for. It's less about the spell library being exact copies of what WHM and BLM would get, and more on RDM's unique application of magic in a way that befits a magic swordsman while still technically "borrowing" from other jobs.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...or/poorRDM.jpg

1. Restrict range on spells (Blue Mage FFXI, most spells you had to be right near the mob)

This guarantees players will not adapt to the job in a different way other than what it was intended, and will force them to remain front line.

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Originally Posted by RedAffinity

1. Restrict range on spells (Blue Mage FFXI, most spells you had to be right near the mob)

This guarantees players will not adapt to the job in a different way other than what it was intended, and will force them to remain front line.

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I think this is pretty much a given.

They want to develop RDM as a enfeebler, with close range melee ability. But rather then the enfeebles be melee based they would be magic spells.

In this case let's look at XI, since when it comes to RDM it wasn't really defined as an enfeebler til 11. When it comes to enfeebles they come in different forms, those that deal dmg and those that inflict status ailments.
The ones which RDM can learn that inflict ailments are:
Paralyze
Blind
Bind
Slow
Gravity
Silence

The ones which inflict damage are
Dia
Bio
Poison

With the following list I think I wound condense RDM to these 3 enfeebles.
Paralyze
Blind
Slow

I honestly don't see Silence ever becoming part of the game though I will include a concept they could go by if they included silence but for now this is how I would setup the skills.

Slashing Seal:Deals additional damage if mob has Para/Blind/Slow

Blind:Blinds the target Combo:Cursed Blade Changes to close range attack, removes ability to blind, deals dark based dmg and more dmg if target is blind, ends current combo chain

Cursed Blade: Standard attack which which opens up combo for Blind/Para/Slow

Seal Breaker: Close range attack, Deals extra dmg to target that has Blind/Para/Slow but removes said effect, the effect however is then emitted as an AOE which inflicts the enfeeble on target around the one hit with Seal Breaker (aka if I land blind on a mob but I want to blind the mobs around it I would blind one mob, then use Seal Breaker to break the curse on the current mob to change it to an AOE which would leave one mob without blind but grant the chance of having more mobs inflicted with Blind)

Paralyze:May caues enemy to be unable to act Combo "Cursed Blade" Removes original effect in place of a Cone ice elemental AOE that may inflict bind on target

Empowering Blade: Attack that may increase the duration of Blind/Para/Slow Combo "Slashing Seal" Has a chance to also increase potency

Extraction Blade: Removes the effects of Blind/Para/Slow on target enemy and grants en effect of all effects absorbed. (The En effect last 30 seconds) Combo: *All combos remove original effect in place of following* "Blind" Ally=grants ACC up
"Paralyze" Ally=Increase att speed
"Slow" Ally=lowers ability recast
(The idea behind Extraction Blade is the combo allows the RDM to extract the negative concept of the effect and enhance the positive effect/opposite effect on a target. Rather then being blinded you'll be able to see better, rather then paralyze you'll act quicker and rather then striking slower you'll be able to act faster.)

Slow:Slows the attack speed and recast of target. Combo "Cursed Blade" Removes original effect in place of a short range attack that may inflict petrify.

Forbidden Seal Thrust:Strike which greatly reduces targets ability to resist enfeebles Combo "Empowering Blade" Removes original effects and deals dmg based on the potency and duration left on Blind/Paralyze/Slow.

Slashing Seal-Empowering Blade-Forbidden Seal Thrust
Cursed Blade-Blind
Cursed Blade-Paralyze
Cursed Blade-Slow
Blind-Extraction Blade
Paralyze-Extraction Blade
Slow-Extraction Blade
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The concept I'm trying to setup is a mage which has the ability to inflict enfeebles that don't do dmg, but they make up for it by having melee actions which focus highly on their ability to augment their blade with seals that can enhance their dmg or even change the effect of spells based on which action you use.

The reason why I'm only using Blind/Para/Slow is because these effect are not to overpowered, I feel adding Silence might be to OPed and when it comes to NMs silence is usually ineffective however when it comes to the 3 I mentioned they are usually always able to land on a target.

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Originally Posted by Airget

They want to develop RDM as a enfeebler, with close range melee ability.

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This would blow up in their faces, so I'm sure it was just mentioned as a point of reference for those who played FFXI.

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I honestly don't see Silence ever becoming part of the game though I will include a concept they could go by if they included silence but for now this is how I would setup the skills.

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I agree. Casting interrupts would be better. THF and DRK could get one each and move on. I'd like RDM to have one, too.

Red Mage: I am not even a class in the game.

fixed your topic for you

self refresh only

Red Mages. They aren't even in the game (yet) and "they" are already complaining about wanting to be melee-onry, never ever want to cure anyone but themselves, blah blah blah, all the usual BS. You front line "There is no Mage in Red Mage! Derp!" people need a "Mystic Knight" class instead, really.

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Originally Posted by BlueMage

Red Mages. They aren't even in the game (yet) and "they" are already complaining about wanting to be melee-onry, never ever want to cure anyone but themselves, blah blah blah, all the usual BS. You front line "There is no Mage in Red Mage" people need a "Mystic Knight" class instead, really.

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Mystic Knight would be awesome all of its weapon skills could be an elemental weaponskill and stuff.

I thoroughly enjoyed playing back line party support & solo god as RDM in FFXI. I can't really see it being balanced/useful as any other role in an MMO.

FFXI is the only finaly fantasy that red mage got forced to be a backline job

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Originally Posted by Disc

I thoroughly enjoyed playing back line party support & solo god as RDM in FFXI. I can't really see it being balanced/useful as any other role in an MMO.

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I can:

Red Mage Specializations

Fencer: Daring magic fighter that uses finesse and skill in combat combined with magic effects and debuffs to hinder their opponents and help their allies.

- Access to unique "Magic Fencing" skills that deal damage and have additional effects.
- Adept at weakening opponents to give themselves and other allies in the front lines an advantage.
- Access to minimal support in the form of situational off-heals.
- Dashing pimp hat.

Sage: Versatile caster with a notable spell library with a focus on support (heals/buffs) and altering the playing field through status ailments and enhancements.

- Access to enhanced debuffs that also do their share of damage.
- Adept at supporting the party by acting as a healer while providing useful buffs.
- Better used from range. Minimal to no close combat abilities.
- Condom hat.

Guess which one I would spec into. >.>

*ahem* Anyway, we don't have talent trees, so the above won't happen. Still, it proves Red Mage is possible in an incarnation that is not the abomination from FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Malix

FFXI is the only finaly fantasy that red mage got forced to be a backline job

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Forced being the operating word.