There is no need to avoid dungeons anymore as we can que for roulettes as an premade now! \o/Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayward
Are there more tanks playing now?
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03-12-2016, 01:27 PMSynestra
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03-12-2016, 02:03 PMFallenWings
For the sake of clarity, those numbers are arbitrarily used to communicate the point. You simply have more impact as a DPS when trying to excel at a job in DF dungeoning.
It is pretty much matter of fact that doing basic tanking should be expected of all tanks in this regard. No shitake mushrooms you can't clear a dungeon if a tank can't even do the basic fundamentals of 'hold aggro'. Have some hope for DF! You could argue that Tank contribution has a bit more weight with healer DPS (and/or vice versa) but then that's just another roll of the dice on whether or not you have a good healer to utilize your efforts.
Honestly DPS only require the tank and healer to do their bare minimum to play at maximum effectiveness as opposed to where a tank needs a good healer to push in DPS stance or a healer needs a tank mitigating very well to push out some DPS themselves. -
03-12-2016, 05:25 PMRapBreon
I switched to a tank! :O
Miss my slaying accs though :< -
03-12-2016, 07:01 PMZadocfish
After reading this thread, I can say with confidence that I am and probably will in the future be a mediocre tank. That is, mostly using Shield Oath and enmity combos rather than focusing on DPS as well. I suppose it's better that I come to terms with that fact now rather than feel bad about it later.
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03-12-2016, 07:06 PMReynhartThat was always the case. In 3.0, DPS could go full power with a PLD sitting in ShO 24/7 just spamming Rage Of Halone.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Even staying out of tank stance didn't really bring any issue when it comes to enmity generation.
Look at now. Damage as decreased for tanks, but increased for DPS just because the gear is higher. It means that, if you want to go medieval on your DPS, you need a tank that has no enmity issue.
But with the damage nerf, it now takes more skill for the tanks to push them further with stance dancing, while still keeping enmity on the rest of the team.
What will separate good tanks from bad tanks is not DPS anymore, it's enmity. And that's the good part, since enmity is something a tank should focus on.
In fact, it brings a feeling I had back when 2.0 WS were introduced. Back then, people complained that the game would just become a dumb spamfest for DPS, and I always thought "Yes, but if you spam like an idiot, you'll probably steal aggro and then die". For me, it meant that the enmity generated by the tank would gate how close DPS could come from their maximum output.
And it's exactly like that now, as long as you consider stance dancing in your playstyle. And it's very clever. For basic groups, enmity won't be an issue, cause the tank will sit in its tank stance, and go on.
For advanced players, it will be like I thought it would be back then, to create a synergy between what enmity tanks can generate and how much DPS can push. -
03-13-2016, 03:33 AMArtemizI completely disagree with this, on DPS my maximum output is almost always decided by the tank by how many mobs he pulls, how static he keeps the pull and how much of a hate ceiling he gives me to work with. The better the tank the more damage I can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
As for the main topic I've no idea, I switched over to main PLD a couple of months ago and I'm loving the new meta personally. I have no interest in being able to out damage crappy DPS players and I take no pride in it. WAR was blatantly OP though before the patch so I'm not surprised by the changes to be honest. Most of the people I see complaining are just whining that their OP job isn't (as) OP anymore so I have zero sympathy to be honest. It's still a very strong job and still the best tank and most in demand job in the game. -
03-13-2016, 04:35 AMDGladius
I'm having fun still. I think Warrior got hit the least in this patch in holding aggro and maintaining high dps. Starting the fight with unchained and go storm's eye combo and then butcher's block under berserk and switch to deliverance for fell cleave or 2 if you have infuriate back up will hold aggro for a long time. This is still high burst during the opener.
Last week my Warrior was at 1150-1160 dps in 3.5 mins of dummy hitting, this week I should be close to 1200. Definitely will be once I get sephirot weapon. Had fun in void ark today hitting 1100 on void ark second boss and even got a 14.8k fell cleave at the end lol.
http://puu.sh/nDW4R/db03b20d09.jpg -
03-13-2016, 07:52 AMThunda_Cat_SMASHThen you're not a very good DPS. A good one can give their maximum regardless of the situation by being able to adapt on the fly to everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemiz
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03-13-2016, 11:59 AMIndigoHawkThat's probably not true! It takes a while to grow as a tank. You may become comfortable doing dps in the future. Also, paladins reduce incoming damage in tank stance as well as increase aggro, so it's not mediocre to use tank stance and let your healer dps more. However, if the healer is lazy and spamming heals, then try to use dps stance to take advantage of overhealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zadocfish
Warriors on the other hand have tanking benefits in dps stance. I can use cds and self sustain for short periods in dps stance. However, warriors have been so OP that they could do a lot of dps while self sustaining and also tanking. They are still quite powerful but were recently brought a bit more in line with their role as tanks instead of dps. -
03-13-2016, 04:34 PMRocheKatThe main reason I don't care for tanking in FFXIV is this. I have been playing MMOs for over a decade now and I almost always play tanks but I get bored easy with them here because I never really feel important. In normal content in other games the difference between a functional tank and a great tank is huge. That isn't true here... Sure I can make runs a little smoother but that isn't doing much. Very rare content is pass/fail based on the tanks ability to do anything at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Outside of raid content you often don't even need a tank and I don't think that helps. When I am on monk a tank that can't keep stuff off of me usually just means I lose some positionals and spend time tanking. His abilities really don't mean much to me. If 4 man content felt more like easy 8 mans/24 man stuff for the tank then I would spend much more time tanking.
I have similar feelings about healing... and because I feel that way about healing and tanking I think they did it on purpose. There is such a major tank and healer shortage in pretty much every other MMO I think they reduced the requirements for the majority of FFXIV for those two roles to get people to do it. -
03-13-2016, 05:16 PMSynestraJust wanted to add that when tanking ALOT of mobs as an PLD using DPS stance is next to pointless as PLD has literally no AoE at all, CoS is only one and even that is pretty LoL compared to what WAR and DRK has. So by staying in ShO allows healer to go deeps mode instead while you rotate CD's and pop some self-heals, its more efficient than trying to be wannabe AoE deeps when you dont have proper tools for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoHawk
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03-13-2016, 05:36 PMZadocfishAh. So most of this "Tanks need to DPS" discussion applies primarily to WAR and DRK. I feel a little dumb now.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoHawk
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03-13-2016, 06:13 PMArtemizThe weasel words are strong with this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
I'll form my rebuttal from the perspective of the tank, you might understand it better then.
If I only pull 3 mobs instead of 9, it's the fault of the BLM for not doing 3 times more AoE damage than his simple rotation allows.
If I can't push a high hate ceiling then it's the BLM's fault for having to hold back or die even though he used QS and can't use RS.
If I take my sweet ass time locking down a boss then it's the BLM's fault for not "adapting on the fly" and taking hate with his opener.
If I pull ranged mobs but don't gather them properly then it's the BLM's fault for not adapting and creating a bigger AoE impact radius.
If I tank a mob like I'm in a Benny Hill sketch then it's the melee's fault for missing positionals even though they're trying their best to do so.
If as an off tank I don't pick up the adds then it's the BLM's fault for not "adapting" and getting smeared across the arena floor when he tries to kill them.
Sounds rather silly when I put it like that, doesn't it? The better that tank, the better the DPS can be because tanking on BLM doesn't increase my DPS and after I've used QS and manawall/ward there isn't much else I can do other than less damage. -
03-13-2016, 06:23 PMSpookyGhostIt applies to PLD as well, but in a different way. WAR and DRK excel at self healing as well as maximizing AOE DPS output in trash pulls, whereas PLD's main focus there is mitigating damage and letting the healer/DPS largely do all the legwork. For bosses, though, things are far more even. PLD has access to a passive block in the form of a shield, which actually makes it the safest tank out of tank stance (it's RNG to proc a block, but as you level you'll unlock Bulwark (60%+ blockrate for a duration) and Sheltron (100% single block). You also have access to various CDs - as an example, if there's no high incoming damage in the fight then being out of tank stance and using Rampart will essentially put you in tank stance for it's duration while still having the damage from being out of tank stance (both are 20% incoming damage reduction, but Shield Oath will penalize your own damage).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zadocfish
Don't think of maximizing DPS as a tank as a necessity - first and foremost you want to make sure you can do all the tank things you need to do (mitigate, hold aggro, don't cleave your party, etc), but once you've sorted all that out and it's running like clockwork in your mind you can start trying to figure out where you can squeeze in extra damage while not costing your healer enough to make your own damage increase worthless. This can be as simple as using Royal Authority or Goring Blade instead of Rage of Halone (costing yourself a tiny bit of aggro for a DPS increase) or as drastic as taking off tank stance, popping defensive CDs, saving FoF for when you're out of tank stance, etc. It's a song and dance, you don't necessarily need to participate in it but it does add some extra fun challenge to the role if you start to get bored. -
03-13-2016, 07:30 PMLyth
I wonder: if there are so many different notions out there on what a tank's primary role is, how is a novice to MMOs supposed to be incentivized to pick up and play a tanking class? DPS and Healers do pretty much what it says on the tin. There's a clear objective and skill progression. How do you develop your skill as a tank? How do you differentiate between a competent tank and an excellent one?
I don't think that you can ever really separate dps out from tanking. We use axes and greatswords as weapons. Historically, in Final Fantasy games, the characters who used these weapons were equally as adept at dishing out punishment as they were at taking it. You don't expect Rosa to outdamage Cecil. So why is the bar now set so low for us in Stone, Sea, Sky?
While the enmity system is there to account for the discrepancy between our dps and that of a pure damage dealing class, we weren't intended to just be RP fighting the boss while the rest of the raid takes it out, either. Part of the art of tanking comes from being to balance your mitigation and enmity needs against your ability to push out more dps. A tank needs to be a genuine threat, not just a numerical one.
De-emphasizing tank dps probably has the biggest implication for the OT role. Most tank roles in fights tend to be fairly asymmetric. If you're going to be stuck on the back of the boss for 9 minutes waiting for your one minute of glory, what are you really expected to contribute outside of dps? Maintain buffs? Granted, there are some fights which are exceptionally fun to OT on, but this is really hit or miss. A DPS is always a DPS. A healer is always a healer. But you have to wait for the right moment in the fight for your opportunity to actually tank. Having all the HP in the world has no value if there's nothing out there that actually wants to hit you.
It's good that tank gear is more standardized. It's good that our HP bars look more visually like tanks. But I'm not sure if either of these really address the main problems in tanking at the moment. -
03-13-2016, 11:03 PMIndigoHawk
I feel like you're concerned about something that didn't happen. Tanks still do good damage.
Tank damage and sustain with str meta made tanks too independent. Instead of maximizing team dps, tanks maximized their own dps. To fix this, enemy damage was increased, tank health was increased, and tank dps was cut down slightly to encourage tanks to focus more on their primary role of positioning and controlling enemies and taking and mitigating damage for the team.
There's no confusion over the role, just a design problem that was fixed.
As for offtanks, their dps was not hit that hard, especially long term with str melded onto accessories. In some fights OT is basically another dps, but in many fights, offtank handles adds, soaks damage mechanics, and tank swaps. It's rarely sitting around 9 minutes waiting for 1 minute of glory.
Tanking is in better shape for 3.2, with more emphasis on tanking and a slightly higher skill cap for tanks who maximize dps. -
03-14-2016, 02:20 AMLyth
The problem is in the central concept. Healers heal. DPS do damage. Both of these are self-explanatory. About the simplest explanation of tanking that I can manage is:
1) Obtain aggro quickly. Retain it. Transfer it smoothly when required.
2) Control the rate of incoming damage through gear and defensive abilities.
3) Position mobs quickly and smoothly. Minimize movement.
4) Maximize your damage output.
Even if you had agreement on what the tenets of tanking are, you'll have a lot of difficulty getting people to agree on how they should be prioritized. The "strength meta" wasn't really about your choice of jewellery. It's about the mindset that you should actively maximize your dps while meeting the requirements of your tanking responsibilities.
The fact that the question of "Do tanks need to dps?" is even on the table in this thread for a class that uses swords as a primary weapon is a reflection of how unintuitive the design of this all is. Here's your foam sword and suit of impervious armor. Go distract that dragon while we beat him up. It's the years of MMO experience which indoctrinate us into thinking that this is "normal".
It's not a question of how much damage you do. It's a question of how much damage you do relative to the rest of the raid. In fights where the OT is essentially another dps, then limit break considerations aside, why not take another dps if you can get away with it? You can spend an entire raid session on OT some days without getting a chance to do something tank-like. If we're not consistently seeing raid content designed for two tanks, then how is an OT supposed to "focus more on their primary role of positioning and controlling enemies and taking and mitigating damage for the team?"
I'm not suggesting that things have taken a change for the worse, because for the most part, it feels about the same as it did before. But you won't produce a shift towards mitigation focused tanking without having equally engaging mechanics and skill-based rewards to match. -
03-14-2016, 11:37 AMJim_Berry
I forgot all about this post lol... Let me go back and re-read the comments.
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03-14-2016, 11:45 AMJim_BerryNo!Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBoogaloo
I did tank because I was NIN tank in FFXI (while being a COR main). Aside of that, I was always told my dps as NIN and BRD stunk. And because I didn't dps as WHM, I had to turn to tank. I leveled both PLD and WAR at that time (before Heavensward). I actually enjoyed tanking without no one saying I suck at my job.
However, that began to change in 3.2, since a PLD/DRK combo would allow the DRK to MT while I OT due to me having OT utility. I still don't know how to "dps" as OT, so I just said forget it and continued on with NIN. -
03-14-2016, 03:42 PMIndigoHawkAgain, you're concerned about something that didn't happen and isn't consistent with the state of tanks in FFXIV. Tanks still do good dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
People always ask, "Do I need to perform my role or can I just dps?" Healers and tanks both ask this question. If fights do not require much healing or tanking, then people will dps instead. The str meta was tanks realizing that that the actual tanking requirements were low and tanks could instead self sustain and dps without worrying much about tanking. So it's been fixed a bit.
Have you tanked the midas dungeons? The offtank helps with adds, tank swaps, and soaks damage. As people overgear content, offtanks can usually be replaced with dps, but the fights are designed for an offtank to tank, not just dps. -
03-14-2016, 06:58 PMReynhartKeep the mob on you and surviveQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
That's the simplest explanation on tanks. The rest is for additionnal flavor, and you could easily do the same for healers and DPS, if you like.
(Manage your enmity, put that buff/debuff, dodge AoE, etc...)
And, most importantly, "maximizing your damage output" is not a core part of the job. Before 3.0, people didn't even care about it.
Now, you could add that part to any role, tanks and healers alike...
For me, Gordias Savage really rotted this game's meta... -
03-14-2016, 08:39 PMHulk_SmashThis is not true. Tanks maximizing DPS has always been important for raiding. Every since BCoBQuote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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03-14-2016, 10:05 PMReynhartHow come the STR debate didn't appear at the very beginning, then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk_Smash
Mandotary maximizing DPS comes from the really tight DPS checks. There was no such thing before at least final coil. Any PLD could stay full vit and spam RoH while sitting in Shield Oath 24/7 without it being any issue. Any team could clear anything even with two PLD, and their so-called "abyssmal damage output". -
03-15-2016, 01:47 AMSarcaticaIIRC, the STR build started picking up rapidly mostly in the FCOB, especially the crafted accessories being a really strong all in one. It was already known that a few good raiding tanks went for 5x pentamelded STR/VIT even back in the i70s crafted accessories. Just brought to light that pentamelded became the arguably "single" best accessories to obtain for tanks, after a few patches gone by. The comparison isn't valid because T1-t13 didn't have huge DPS checks too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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03-15-2016, 02:23 AMReynhartQuote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
That's why, even if that was "a thing", it was far from being a main focus...like "something you'd include in the description of the job"Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
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03-15-2016, 03:38 AMLyth
The use of STR gear was established going into SCOB at the very latest. In BG's clear of T9 in 2.2, Sirius Taco was i93 in slaying gear (including a vortex ring of slaying!) Xeno brought the concept into more widespread discussion around 2.3, and more players started experimenting with the concept in FCOB. I suspect that one of the reasons why SCOB served as a catalyst was that the fight designs were so asymmetrical for tanks. A lot of groups ultimately ended up solo tanking T8 and T9 and swapping out the WAR for an extra melee dps, simply because you could. A WAR in STR gear represented a nice compromise where you retained some limited tanking functionality while being able to make up a significant proportion of the damage output that a full-time dps can.
Mechanics like stacks are implemented to force you to use two tanks. Damage split mechanics are an even better way of making both tanks feel relevant (T13 was hands down the best designed fight from an OT perspective, and it's good to see that A8 carries some of the same flavour.) But rather than making it so that we're forced to use two tanks, wouldn't it be better to allow both tanks to be relevant at all times, regardless of whether they're tanking or not? MT or OT, you want to feel like you're a valuable, contributing member of your raid. The fight design philosophy needs to change. -
03-15-2016, 04:12 AMMerkavaHere's a better question, why not? People keep talking as if DPS and Tanking are two mutually exclusive actions. A tank that dies because of improper mitigation (be it because they choose STR over VIT or didn't use proper cooldown) is just as bad as a tank that fails to keep aggro. Aggro and tanking are our main jobs but there is absolutely NO reason we shouldn't be optimizing our damage output at all times. Keeping aggro and mitigating scripted tank busters is childs play, keeping your numbers as high as possible while doing so is where it gets fun and what splits mediocre tanks from exceptional ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Even without the "STR Meta" good tanks will always aim for the highest DPS possible. People should really stop using the "STR vs VIT" argument to justify that they are just mediocre players (not aiming this comment at anyone). I would have preferred SE limit tank damage via Mechanics rather than a straight out nerf (Since stuff in Gordias hit really gently) but alas, good tanks will adapt and keep optimizing. Mediocre tanks will just find something to complain about. -
03-15-2016, 04:13 AMNektulos-Tuor
Damage is a form of mitigation.
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03-15-2016, 09:40 AMThunda_Cat_SMASHObjectively speaking, this is only true when you have self healing tied to dps, or are dying to an enrage or DPS oriented mechanic, like Titan 's heart phase. Pushing phases faster is not mitigating any damage whatsoever, as you're still getting hit just as hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
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03-15-2016, 05:32 PMReynhartIt's not a case of "why not", it's a case of "describe the basics of the job", and maximizing DPS is not part of the basics of tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava
I'm really hating this sentence more and more...because it's abysmaly uneducated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava
Good tanks will not ensure fights go fast, they'll ensure fights go smooth. They'll evaluate their healer, and see how much of a safety net they need. They'll judge their party setup and how they will manage the run.
For example, if you play a PLD and you have a heavy AoE setup, then STR does nothing for you, because you'll want to take as many mobs as possible, probably spam Flash more than damage skills (Which will give you far enough enmity even on VIT build), and offer a big HP pool so that your WHM will have more time spamming Holy in cleric stance before your HP drop to dangerous levels. -
03-15-2016, 06:51 PMLaerune
I did level my tanking classes in ARR, but never tanked alot with those classes, with HW I have been tanking with my Warrior and Dark Knight alot and I am enjoying it. I reckon the expansion probaly got some players to try out tanking and some stick it and others dismiss it.
To your questions: Are there more tanks playing now? I think there are more tanks playing right now, but the numbers are still lower compared to healers and dps players that the increase will not make much of a difference. -
03-16-2016, 01:28 AMInstrumentalityObjectively speaking a boss that is dead does zero damage to the tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
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03-16-2016, 02:52 AMMerkava...what? DPSing is indeed not part of the "basics of tanking" but it's still something tanks should care about. It matters when you're trying to steps things up from every other average tank. Just because it's not part of the "basics" doesn't mean it's either bad nor something that should be ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
... You completely went over the entire point didn't you? What is it about your statement contradicts what I said? Allow me to repeat in case you are unable to properly read said "uneducated" statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Good DPS and tanking are not mutually exclusive actions. If a tank knows the fight well, how to properly manage cooldowns and how to keep control of said encounter then he/she should always aim to contribute as much DPS as possible to the raid without sacrificing their main functions as a tank. This is what differentiates an exceptional tank from a mediocre one.
First of all, you do know that there was a patch recently that changed the whole AP formula for tanks, right? No tank is going to take STR anymore, regardless of the situation so presenting this argument as if it was 3.0 or 3.1 is simply a giant waste of time. Tanks will take VIT at this point because it's simply superior to STR, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Why would you “spam flash”? You just need to flash in order to establish enmity. If you already have a significant enmity lead over everyone else why would you keep spamming a 0 damage skill that also burns up valuable MP? That's a complete waste of time. You either have a comfortable lead on enmity or you don't. Generating a gazillion enmity ahead of everyone else does nothing for you. If you already have a firm hold on enmity you should not be spamming flash, instead damage skills seem like a better use of your time. If you are learning a fight then this is ok but you eventually have to move past this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
You know what else gives your WHM more time to spam holy? Good Cooldown usage, even with the extra HP a good tank will always strive to use cooldowns properly. This is by far, way more important than MOAR HP. Good healers want stuff to die fast more than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
People simply switched to STR in HW because of how the fights where designed and how HP bloats did little to help with actual damage mitigation (Healers in this game being extremely powerful, you either survive or you don't). Good tanks will switch around as the fights demand it, it's all about adapting and optimizing, exceptional vs mediocre. It's kinda like how WAR works during progression, as they learn the fight they are more likely to use Storm's Path frequently in their rotation but as the group becomes more and more comfortable with the fight many of them often stop using it altogether in favor of more raw DPS.
It's not even about STR vs VIT because that whole argument is (was), quite frankly, simply utterly pointless and ridiculous; heck, VIT vs STR doesn't even matter anymore as STR is now a bad idea to have. It's simply about either mediocre tanks making up excuses or people just complaining about how the game "should play".
On the flip side there where indeed issues with Raid designs in Goardias as the tight DPS checks pretty much made Paladin Unviable during progression. This was a horrible design choice and SE should never repeat this ever again but this is an entirely separate argument. -
03-16-2016, 03:34 AMReynhartNo, in fact, I think you went over the entire discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava
Let me remind you where it started :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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Originally Posted by Reynhart
Maybe that's why I talked about the past STR debate...maybe, since MOAAAAR DEEPS came from here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava
Yes, they're not. But one also doesn't imply the other. Since, in 3.0, most people could sum up "being good" as "wearing STR acc", because "if you don't, then you're not doing as much damage as you can", you could say that "not playing WAR" is automatically being a bad tank since you could do more damage as a WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava
And this "WAR only" mentality will probably outlive the STR debate...heck, with the recent PLD buffs, you already see "DRK is dead" threads... -
03-16-2016, 05:26 AMMerkavaBecause at that point in time it was just simply what was best. Vit had no place over STR when nothing hit hard enough to require THAT much HP. Tank DPS was (and still is) far more reliable than healers so it's far more desirable in just about every situation. Since healers are powerful in this game tanks had no reason to bloat more HP when they where well above the required HP treshold of whatever attack that was coming their way. STR simply trounced VIT in every shape or form, unless the extra HP was required to survive whatever tank buster was coming your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Effective tanking was, and still, is about effective cooldown and mechanics management. It still and will probably never be about HP bloat, unless the tank buster requires it.
The problem with the 3.0 "meta" wasn't the STR vs VIT debate, it was simply how Gordias was designed at that point. With tight DPS checks and somewhat gentle tank busters everyone was encouraged to do as much DPS as possible in order to have a realistic chance of not hitting some enrage timer or whanot. "MOAAAR DEEPS" came because of Goardias and how very little things in the game actually required high HP levels in order to be survivable. This was a design problem first and foremost. Sadly we all know how high end Meta gameplay tends to have a domino effect, whatever is best for the highest end raid is often considered what's best for everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
And frankly, during my entire 3.0 run, I never once saw a VIT tank that was exception in any shape or form. I will admit that I was the type that when I saw pure VIT i assumed either new player or average player (at best), I was never wrong. All they ever did was stay in their respective tank stances and just kept hate, that's it. Never doing good damage nor using cooldowns effectively for that matter. It just made average tanks easier to manage in PF. But it is true that a mediocre STR tank was a pain to deal with but this was a problem with the tank and not with the Meta. STR just did everything VIT did but better, it just required the tank to not suck in order to use effectively (it definetly had a higher skill floor).
Nobody likes seeing their favorite class suck, as a WAR I would never want to see either DRK nor PLD deal with what PLD had to during 3.0 and 3.1. Games like this will always have debates like this but it's really up to SE to prevent screw Gordias level screw ups. Look at Thordan, for example, PLDs where highly desired in that fight. If they better designed Gordias then most of this wouldn't have happened as the STR vs VIT debate raged even before 3.0 hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Sadly, due to how certain things have been balanced, WAR is probably still the best tank in the game (perhaps the best class overall) and this isn't good and should be fixed. Namely since WAR is the only tank class that does not sacrifice DPS for hate. Having one class dominate is never good for anyone. -
03-16-2016, 05:34 AMZadocfishRemember, PLDs have exactly ONE native AOE damage attack, it has a 25s cd, and they have very few abilities that use MP. Clemency is useful, but not as much as the ability to gain enmity quickly. And for big pulls, keeping enmity on all foes when your team decides to target different enemies, or DPS uses AOE skills, is aided A LOT by establishing an AOE enmity lead. Basically, Flash spamming has its uses, and shouldn't be overlooked. PLD doesn't have much AOE.Quote:
Why would you “spam flash”? You just need to flash in order to establish enmity. If you already have a significant enmity lead over everyone else why would you keep spamming a 0 damage skill that also burns up valuable MP? That's a complete waste of time. You either have a comfortable lead on enmity or you don't. Generating a gazillion enmity ahead of everyone else does nothing for you.
Course, I'm still low leveled, so this is just what I've noticed. Early game, Flash is a skill that you will be using a lot. -
03-16-2016, 05:46 AMMerkavaOh definitely, Flash is a great skill for PLD (namely since it is the only AOE skill they have for a long time). They should definitely use it, the thing I wanted to stress is when you go overboard with "flash spam". There is a thing as enmity bloat, you don't want to generate an excess of it if it means burning your resources and sacrificing too much of your DPS. Flash should be used first and foremost as a tool to establish enmity. You do not need it for anything else. Once you have a good lead on the DPS (or healer) then there is very little reason to keep using it. spreading dps around is, by far, a much better use of your time (like spreading around Goring Blade). Clemency is indeed a situational skill but you do need more MP in order to use flash further down the line or even stance dance if you are feeling like pushing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zadocfish
Granted tho, it is ultimately true that PLD is just gimped in the AOE debate. -
03-16-2016, 05:47 AMFallenHero
Why would a TANK cry about a 10-20% DPS loss? That was never your role and if you are good you can still do a lot of DPS, just not as much before. If an extra 100-200 DPS is such a big deal then go play a DPS class. (You never did that much pre 3.0 anyways)
As for aggro issues, I have none so Im not sure where thats coming from, your tank stance exists for a reason.
Tanks and Healers will always be the least played roles, their queues are still relatively instant besides the 24 mans since the party composition is so skewed towards having more DPS. -
03-16-2016, 06:05 AMNektulos-TuorBecause aggro is some times hard to control; the nerf was unjustified because DPS do significantly more damage, it was bad DPS who did crap damage and complained.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenHero
It also kind of fits the role for Warrior; and Dark Knight is in a pretty sad state atm now. -
03-16-2016, 08:50 AMFallenHero
I have had zero problem controlling aggro so I really dont see that at all, and tank classes arent supposed to DPS as much as a DPS class, I wouldnt call it unjustified, just bringing them back in line with how they should be. People will complain about any slight nerf to their class though even if it barely affects the group in the long run.
A Warrior's role as OT has literally not changed at all, they are just doing 1150 DPS instead of 1300, and they still bring good raid utility with eye/storm
How is Dark Knight in a bad place? They still do 100 DPS more than PLD and are the preferred Tank for Savage raids that have high magic outgoing damage and tight DPS checks.
DRK was used in the A8S world first clear but people on the forums think they are in a bad place because PLD got a DPS buff? yeah okay.
I have all 3 tanks at i223 and swap them out for whatever the fight entails, the only time I ever use PLD is if its a heavy physical fight.
This is nothing but knee jerks reactions and complaints over something that isnt a big deal at all.