"This is my playstyle" is a poor argument for being bad.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I think we were looking at this topic the wrong way. Instead of focusing on the bad players, we should start focusing on how to play suboptimaly and have fun while doing it.

Content would not get cleared, but imagine all the fun we could have!

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i dont have fun wiping with no hope in sight, or dragging my feet.
sorry sir but i am not into masochism or anything else similar in nature

The whole problem with everybody should play as they see fit is that if everybody would start doing this it would lead to something... interesting. But that's what the main player base wants.

It is a little bit sad that tanks and healers are not allowed to have fun, because people get angry at you even when you are doing your job... but at "wrong" pace.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I think we were looking at this topic the wrong way. Instead of focusing on the bad players, we should start focusing on how to play suboptimaly and have fun while doing it.

Content would not get cleared, but imagine all the fun we could have!

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Well, you started this mess. Of course it would escalade.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

The whole problem with everybody should play as they see fit is that if everybody would start doing this it would lead to something... interesting. But that's what the main player base wants.

It is a little bit sad that tanks and healers are not allowed to have fun, because people get angry at you even when you are doing your job... but at "wrong" pace.

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The main player base act like everyone should be hardcore raiders, too. But that won't ever happen. Many people just feel like the negative comments from other players, even if it's not directed at them, won't be tolerated.

Funny story. I had a healer in Vault once, dressed in Ironworks gear, who got angry with me for pulling the hall after the first boss. I told them that I haven't noticed that they were so undergeared... you wouldn't believe how much offended they got. I almost felt like it was my fault for their lack of gearing up.

The question is where is the line? Where is the line between playing badly in acceptable way and playing badly in unacceptable way.

Somebody playing poorly might be acceptable for one player, while totally inexcuseable for another.

I would say put in at least as much effort as your tank and healer.

With how many times now people have used "fun" to defend being willfully ignorant and/or lazy, I think it's about time to bring this back up:

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Originally Posted by mp-please

This whole thread

http://puu.sh/k87ua.png

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I think we were looking at this topic the wrong way. Instead of focusing on the bad players, we should start focusing on how to play suboptimaly and have fun while doing it.

Content would not get cleared, but imagine all the fun we could have!

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Would certainly be a hilarious experiment. Everyone puts in as much effort as the average DF person, nothing will ever be cleared again. Wonder how quick the 200 dps people will be on the forums, crying about nobody carrying them anymore.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

With how many times now people have used "fun" to defend being willfully ignorant and/or lazy, I think it's about time to bring this back up:

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Fun fact: The equivalent to that picture would be hacking the game to change the game code and turn it into pinball or some other game with completely different rules.

The equivalent to playing badly/lazily in games like FFXIV would be taking ages to put your cross/circle or putting it in a way that's easily intercepted and outplayed.

I wouldn't bring it up more than once for the immediate "lolz" effect. You only turn a joke into a running gag at best.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Fun fact: The equivalent to that picture would be hacking the game to change the game code and turn it into pinball or some other game with completely different rules.

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Or it means "whatever, I do what I want."

http://media.giphy.com/media/hdN8FFzN0UEoM/giphy.gif
xD Ok Im done here

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Funny story. I had a healer in Vault once, dressed in Ironworks gear.

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The Vault is a pre 60 MSQ Instance, that you run a low amount of time like any other leveling instance before with your first class during leveling. On alternate classes you run it around 10 times.

Maybe it was his first or second time or he had no drop luck?

I was running the lvl 51 instance on my twink as DRK 10 times and it droppet just one accessoire. No weapon. No piece of bodygear. 10 times lvl 53 instance. 1 piece of body gear. Nothing else.

When you don't know how long this guy was playing on that level, you should turn on your brain before complaining about his gear. Especially when you are running instances that are just for leveling.

Even in lvl 60 instances you will see people that freshly hit lvl 60 and are starting to collect for gear.

Just because YOU are gearing a long time now doesn't mean anybody else do it the same amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I almost felt like it was my fault for their lack of gearing up.

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Hard to know without seeing what exactly happened.

Maybe it was to much to handle for him.

Maybe you miss the fact what levelsync really means.

Maybe you are not playing as good as you think. Pulling much is easy. Knowing how to handle it correctly "as a tank" is a different thing. Its not just a healer thing ;)

I had a run in expert with a bard not using a menuet, I did ask if he forgot it or he hates it, didn't get answer, he didn't even use foe, with all the fact that I was in as BLM (on my alt). I understand that people have their playstiles, but OMG... there still should be some things that have to be used to do your job. I always check when BRD if there is a caster and keep an eye on the healer if they are dpsing... foe is a must ._. but maybe it's just me.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Maybe it was his first or second time or he had no drop luck?

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If I look on both my main and my alt.... the leveling main classes... I got 0 drops for them... after that whatever I level I try to greed everything for the other classes I am leveling, because.... for example sohm al... the shield didnt drop at all while leveling pld, got pld to 55,... got into sohm al with blm.... and LOOK shield drops....

EDIT: tho I got the hq stuff from the quests, AND if i miss something i get a nq thing from the MB or if I am still the level to be able to do I craft it alone... I don't feel comfortable if I don't have a certain ilvl when going into a dng

It depends, though. If the healer was new, then they should have the HQ gear they get from the quests. If not, then yeah. Entirely possible... though I made sure to Greed on everything that dropped because why not?
Buying vender equipment (even if not good) would have been better than nothing, though (I think some NQ equips on the MB actually sell for a lot less than NPCs).

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

It's a funny argument to me. The classes are so simple when it comes down to it there's really no way to have a 'playstyle' and still play optimally.

Sadly, there really is only one way to do most things in this game. Anything else and you probably deserve to be laughed at.

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There are styles just not multiple ones within a job. The job itself should be the style people are finding if they like it or not

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

The Vault is a pre 60 MSQ Instance, that you run a low amount of time like any other leveling instance before with your first class during leveling. On alternate classes you run it around 10 times.

Maybe it was his first or second time or he had no drop luck?

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Ironworks is ilvl 120. If it's their first class, there's absolutely no reason not to have upgrades because the MSQ feeds you Ilvl 139 HQ gear. If it was not their first class, it looks just as bad from a different perspective because they know there are vendor sources of gear and to have the common decency to not go into a Ilvl142 dungeon in ilvl120 gear, or especially if it's not their first healer because they have gear spilling over from leveling their first healer.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Hard to know without seeing what exactly happened.

Maybe it was to much to handle for him.

Maybe you miss the fact what levelsync really means.

Maybe you are not playing as good as you think. Pulling much is easy. Knowing how to handle it correctly "as a tank" is a different thing. Its not just a healer thing

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He did mention that the healer apparently got offended for being told that he was indeed undergeared.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I told them that I haven't noticed that they were so undergeared... you wouldn't believe how much offended they got.

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You entirely opted out that part in your quote, and it does not make the healer look any ebtter than a tank who overpulls. They're taking a statement that possibly was not meant in offense in offense and may have gotten pissy about it. Eithercase, the healer was in ironworks, got mentioned he was "undergeared" and got offended by it. That's the same as anyone getting offended for saying they're not playing good (and especially if they know it).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Ironworks is ilvl 120. If it's their first class, there's absolutely no reason not to have upgrades because the MSQ feeds you Ilvl 139 HQ gear. If it was not their first class, it looks just as bad from a different perspective because they know there are vendor sources of gear and to have the common decency to not go into a Ilvl142 dungeon in ilvl120 gear, or especially if it's not their first healer because they have gear spilling over from leveling their first healer.

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the loot in the vault is ilvl 142. that means you don't have to be ilvl 142. 136 (from the dungeon before) should be more than enough. was the ironworks ilvl 120 or upgraded to 130? and healers in this game are so overpowered i think 120 is fine for the vault if you know what you are doing.

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Originally Posted by Tint

the loot in the vault is ilvl 142. that means you don't have to be ilvl 142. 136 (from the dungeon before) should be more than enough. was the ironworks ilvl 120 or upgraded to 130? and healers in this game are so overpowered i think 120 is fine for the vault if you know what you are doing.

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The poster only mentioned ironworks, so I'd assume Ilvl120. If that was the case, there's really no excuse to go into a lvl 57 dungeon in full ironworks because there are upgrades outside from dungeons at that point, espesically if it's your first character. If it wasnt their first character (or even first healer), they should at least have the common decency to buy ivl 139 vendor gear that's stronger than ilvl120, or at the very least not get offended when they called out for being undergeared because they didn't take the proper measures in the first place.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

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During leveling you get quest gear, so it was an alt and one must be really unlucky to get no drops before reaching the Vault as a healer - I have collected most of the tank gear during leveling my healer. Unless of course you like fate leveling, in which case there is crafted gear.

Player's skill is one thing, some players aren't that good, but that's where gearing up comes in. Gearing is skill boost. If you enter the Vault in Ironworks than you must be really overconfident... or stupid. Imagine how well would the run go if everybody had the Ironworks in random DF group. Do you think it would be fun? Well that's why the nerfs are on their way.

The point is - if the healer had mix of crafted / Sohm Al / Aery gear, there would have been no wipe. There was one. I got blamed for pulling too much... I explained why we wiped... The healer got angry.

Now of course there is a relationship between the tank and healer. I had the Vault set on... which makes healing much easier. As WHM main I have healed tanks in Vault who sucked at tanking more than I do... it was possible because I kept my equip in good condition. I would rather not even want to think about the runs when undergeared healer gets matched with undergeared tank... that's a topic for DF horror stories.

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Originally Posted by Tint

the loot in the vault is ilvl 142. that means you don't have to be ilvl 142. 136 (from the dungeon before) should be more than enough. was the ironworks ilvl 120 or upgraded to 130? and healers in this game are so overpowered i think 120 is fine for the vault if you know what you are doing.

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It was the basic i120 one

I've recently been leveling my AST primarily through dungeon runs. Level 56 now and I've gotten a grand total of 2 drops from The Aery out of about a dozen runs through it.

I was still wearing my WoD body and legs actually until I just said "f it" and bought some crafted pieces from the MB because it's getting ridiculous. I can see someone at level 57 with similar luck but no money still legitimately using i120 stuff. It'd suck, but what are they seriously supposed to do? Healing a dungeon while undergeared is a thing that's possible for a skilled healer as long as the tank isn't completely potato.

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Originally Posted by Tint

the loot in the vault is ilvl 142. that means you don't have to be ilvl 142. 136 (from the dungeon before) should be more than enough. was the ironworks ilvl 120 or upgraded to 130? and healers in this game are so overpowered i think 120 is fine for the vault if you know what you are doing.

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It'd be tight. Trash and the last boss in the vault toss out quite a bit of damage.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

I've recently been leveling my AST primarily through dungeon runs. Level 56 now and I've gotten a grand total of 2 drops from The Aery out of about a dozen runs through it.

I was still wearing my WoD body and legs actually until I just said "f it" and bought some crafted pieces from the MB because it's getting ridiculous. I can see someone at level 57 with similar luck but no money still legitimately using i120 stuff. It'd suck, but what are they seriously supposed to do? Healing a dungeon while undergeared is a thing that's possible for a skilled healer as long as the tank isn't completely potato.

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Vendor gear for lvl 56 is ilvl 139 and costs less than 30k a piece. Just from the waist alone, its a difference of 3 MND, 1 vit and plenty of defense toward magic so you don't become a SICKNESS that MUST BE PURGED!!!! on the last boss. The outgoing damage there is no joke and you'll end up being relatively much much squishier to the unavoidable damage.

And if it was their first character, they'd have HQ equips from MSQ that they shouldn't be rocking ironworks by the time they get to vault.

I just think that SE don't like bard that much.