Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

I agree with the op. While the fights can be fun, it is ultimately frustrating to get to second coil and hit a brick wall because of players that do not understand the mechanics of a fight. And while the general solution to that is typically "Kick that guy and find someone else", it seems to me that's a great way to diminish the player base by excluding others. If the game were more rewarding for skill of using your job correctly and not so much mechanic heavy, so many people probably wouldn't leave. T6 for example, if you have a member that doesn't quite understand that breaking the vines come before doing damage or how to position themselves to not be devoured that can hold back the party.

They can be the best in the world at doing damage as a black mage/summoner/bard/dragoon/monk but if they don't understand the movements then they will never progress. Honestly, it's a cheap way to reward thrills and effort. Not saying mechanics should go away altogether but they shouldn't be as important as they are now.

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Originally Posted by Ramzal

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But your playing skill is how you adapt and handle the mechanics. To remove them means you're effectively hitting a training dummy, which has almost zero skill investment or fight variation.

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Originally Posted by Ramzal

They can be the best in the world at doing damage as a black mage/summoner/bard/dragoon/monk but if they don't understand the movements then they will never progress. Honestly, it's a cheap way to reward thrills and effort. Not saying mechanics should go away altogether but they shouldn't be as important as they are now.

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I agree, but second coil is not the best example, I think the normal story line should be more forgiving and definitely needs to be looked at "for over-reliance on mechanics" - top-tier raids/dungeons on the other hand should remain hard for months before there is gear good enough to recover from some insta-kill mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

But your playing skill is how you adapt and handle the mechanics. To remove them means you're effectively hitting a training dummy, which has almost zero skill investment or fight variation.

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I don't call memorization of a completely scripted battle as skill or fight variation. If anything, in FFXIV the only time you'll be adapting to anything is if a pre-scripted mechanic hits someone who was careless and you have to raise them while juggling healing, push the phase, compensate the DPS loss, etc... And yes this requires skill, and you'll be able to show off just how good you are, if only that nasty mechanic didn't kill half your party and silence the other half.

If someone screws up, but having good gear was able to compensate for that, wouldn't that be a benefit? What's wrong with that? It gives you a damn good reason to strive for better gear, if the other reasons weren't enough.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

gear should help but it should be a secondary factor not a primary one

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Turn 4 is a moot point, but this quote is exactly the problem! See GEAR SHOULD HELP, that's the problem, it doesn't - it barely even matters! Most of the most frustrating fights are won and lost because someone else made a mistake and the unforgiving mechanics wiped the party. So right now, as long as you have basic gear, gear is not even a factor, let alone a secondary factor. The OP is complaining that this game is 90% mechanics, 10% gear, when really it should be 60/40 or maybe 70/30 at higher levels/end-game top-tier raids etc.



So turn 4:

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Originally Posted by Pibz

The fight [turn 4] is pure tank and spank gear check no more, no less. Of course it helps if you know your role(rotations, when to use cooldowns etc) but the same happens in every single fight in this game.

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Why was it mentioned as a good balance? Well I saw you initially write "this game is too easy" before you edited it, but regardless it's subjective right. I know many people who struggled in Turn 4, there are some mechanics not a lot, phases too, but also a good DPS check. And yes the same happens in every single fight (like many other bosses), but when people screw up the mechanics you could compensate and still pull through...

If the OT screwed up and couldn't grab a soldier, a black mage could even pull a hero and manawall kite it a bit! How was that not awesome, nothing mechanics based really insta-killed you. I've even tanked 2 dreads with 1 healer for 30s once with perfect buff rotation and won, or as OT if a healer died Hallow Ground and backup SS the MT for 10s while DPS finish off the 2nd dread.

Ask yourself this, people find Turn 4 easier than Titan EX, even though Turn 4 is meant to be further in the game, is that right? Why? Because when things go wrong in Turn 4, the better skilled players can compensate, in Titan EX they can't do anything except watch helplessly.

Part of the post doesn't really make any sense, trying to separate "boss mechanics" and "player mechanics." I am unconvinced that a switch to more focus on being able to master a DPS, tanking or healing rotation (which rely just as much on memory or reaction as scripting does, since you're either doing a rotation, using a priority system, or playing whack-a-mole, which is all healing becomes if scripted mechanics are replaced with randomness or tank-and-spank) is going to be significantly more fun, especially considering that repeatedly doing the same thing more often makes you more bored than less often. So if there's more focus on keeping up DoTs as a Summoner, for example, Summoners will then get bored and complain that their rotation isn't complex enough and fights are too boring, etc.

The simple fact is, what you do to accomplish your role's goal with the buttons on your bar are mechanics. What the bosses do to damage you are mechanics. Shifting more focus from one to the other sounds like it might increase fun, but chances are it will neither make the game more nor less fun (because you'll be doing the same sharing of boss and player mechanics when you do a fight again, rather than mostly boss mechanics or mostly player mechanics, but it's not going to change significantly in future fights with any particular boss) and just be a novelty for a bit for people who aren't used to it.

Finally, anyone who has used Raid Finder in WoW or used the Duty Finder for CT will also know that frustration for all but the hardcore players (who become frustrated for different reasons, but tend not to use random match-making as much) will come when players can now work fine with simpler or less focus on mechanics, but can't, for the life of them, meet a DPS check even with fancy gear.

The feeling that there is a problem automatically causes people to think of things they don't like, and then label that thing "the problem," when often, the problem is actually something different. Perhaps the problem with "end game" is that there isn't enough variety in content, and because of that, people feel like they have to do particular things, like Extreme Primals and BCB2, which is content they might not like. So they blame that content for failure to satisfy, all while assuming that because they don't like it, "the majority" of people also don't, and identify things that frustrate them in that content. However, it's clear that other people do like the content, and that changing "the mechanics" would just trade off on alienating people. So the answer might not be that mechanics need to be changed or different, but more content for different players needs to be introduced.

That, unfortunately, is a tough thing to expect of developers. They can only produce so much content at once, and so it will necessarily be limited in some way. That doesn't mean they don't recognize it might be a problem and try to deliver more variety in the future.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

But your playing skill is how you adapt and handle the mechanics. To remove them means you're effectively hitting a training dummy, which has almost zero skill investment or fight variation.

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I didn't say remove them. In fact I noted that they shouldn't be removed but they shouldn't be the main focus of progression.

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Not saying mechanics should go away altogether but they shouldn't be as important as they are now.

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Never understood serious players, and now one of them writes a 4000 word essay on the state of this game? Baffling.

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Originally Posted by Litre

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The more mechanical fights (such as T6/T7) are scripted, but the victims of abilities frequently changes, requiring different responses - adaptation. T7 has the nice "ramping difficulty" aspect with the arena becoming more dangerous as the fight progresses (and petrifaction being added). Mechanics being very deadly add a punishment for failure, as they should. If you could just ignore mechanics or power through failing them, they may as well not exist.

Gear does help a great deal, it just doesn't guarantee you victory from the outset.

I don't even know why people are complaining about mechanics suddenly - even Coil 2 is very mechanics-light compared to most MMOs... you haven't seen anything yet!

100% Agree.

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Originally Posted by Litre

Turn 4 is a moot point, but this quote is exactly the problem! See GEAR SHOULD HELP, that's the problem, it doesn't - it barely even matters! Most of the most frustrating fights are won and lost because someone else made a mistake and the unforgiving mechanics wiped the party. So right now, as long as you have basic gear, gear is not even a factor, let alone a secondary factor. The OP is complaining that this game is 90% mechanics, 10% gear, when really it should be 60/40 or maybe 70/30 at higher levels/end-game top-tier raids etc.

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Gear does matter, if you don't think so you're not playing the same game as me. Whole mechanics can be completely skipped by having better gear. So no it isn't 90% mechanics, it's way lower. And the more reliant it is on mechanics over gear- the better.

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Originally Posted by Litre

So turn 4:
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Please don't use quotation marks if you are not going to quote me, what i had written before i edited it was that the game already has enough easy fights as is, and what i wanted to say(and therefore edited to avoid this crap) is what it says now - that we don't need any fight to get easier.

Also you need to read better, i didn't say that the fight is always the same i said that ofc knowing your role helps as it does in every single fight in the game..
As for the scenario you painted here it is reversed:
The OT in Titan EX doesn't manage to grab aggro, it goes for the blm he uses manawall. Yay crisis averted.

In T4, someone messes up and brings the bugs that are stuck on him to 2 dreadnoughts(not at the same time, doesn't matter who lets assume stupid OT) feeding them, the poor main tank gets to tank a 4 stack dread and a 2 stack one, he doesnt manage to, no one else is able to do anything but watch helplessly. OMG such unforgiveness needs to be less punishing and moar random please.(this example is a joke of course but this is how some people in this thread sound to me)

Other notes:
1. You can carry 1-2 people through titan EX(same for garuda, leviathan,t1-t5) at the moment, and its not even that hard to do it.
2. Having content that you can carry people through at its release is not something that we really need. If you can carry 2 through an encounter and you're not totally over gearing it, it means that those 2 are not needed, and that the tuning is not right.

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Originally Posted by Rose_Vilehart

also this is not a counter argument to my not wanting all meaning in the deaths removed which is what the guy i was replying to was suggestion, if you cant run the hard content (specifically made to be hard) wait until nerf.

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The problem is that it's easy to not fall off but the consequences of doing so is harsh. To anyone with experience, the falling off and instant death mechanics are boring because it just won't happen. It's as easy as breathing but if you forget to breathe, you die. But the only people who pay any attention to breathing are those new to it or those who are somehow impaired.

The result is stuff like Titan/Levi is too easy, and I hardly run them anymore. But they are hard to get into for casuals.

It's not real difficulty, just easy things done under huge pressure.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

The thing is FFXI is still active you can play it and the fights have not changed almost everything still is tank and spank the fights are easy compared to FFXIV you tank and spank the boss and collect your gear.

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just have to touch this piece of ignorance.

yes, xi is still up and running, but current xi is as close to old xi as arr is to xiv1.0. both games are 100% different than they were originally.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

just have to touch this piece of ignorance.

yes, xi is still up and running, but current xi is as close to old xi as arr is to xiv1.0. both games are 100% different than they were originally.

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You haven't played FFXI recently SE is going through redoing most all old bcnm fights and mission fights Zilart, AA ect for the level 99+ cap and dropping new gear or items to upgrade old af, and relic gear. Its pretty much the same exact fights people done for ages now only redone for lv99. And they play almost the same as they did back before the 99 cap only the mobs have 99+ stats

I disagree with nearly all of that post.

If there were no mechanics like that. Basicly every single fight would turn into a tank and spank.

lol wow, I expected this to be controversial but you guys really went to town with this one :p

I abused my OP status and added my own two cents to the original post. Feel free to agree/disagree. Chew me out if you want. But at the end of the day, I think all of us want the game to become better, so let's try to get as many people's opinion on this as possible. Um, in a civil manner, of course.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Gear does matter, if you don't think so you're not playing the same game as me. Whole mechanics can be completely skipped by having better gear. So no it isn't 90% mechanics, it's way lower. And the more reliant it is on mechanics over gear- the better.

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Yes, gear does matter, it varies from fight to fight, we're just saying more often than not it matters too little. Like you said gear is secondary to mechanics, I see nothing wrong with that, what's your number at? I think the game should be 60/40 mechanics to gear, and in harder fights end-game etc closer to 70-80/20-30 etc...


But the sad reality is for many PUGs running Titan EX mechanics is 100/0! Why? It only takes 2 people, to die to mechanics and only if the other 6 players were maxed perhaps they can salvage it

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Originally Posted by Pibz

1. You can carry 1-2 people through titan EX(same for garuda, leviathan,t1-t5) at the moment, and its not even that hard to do it.

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yes of course, if I wanted to help 2 LS mates clear I can find 5 top geared players and do it sure, but I'd say it's more the exception than the norm. And as the OP said, how is that fun for them? Here's roadblock content, you suck so just find someone to carry you, really? I could just quote the OP's words all day to your arguments.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

2. Having content that you can carry people through at its release is not something that we really need. If you can carry 2 through an encounter and you're not totally over gearing it, it means that those 2 are not needed, and that the tuning is not right.

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To which I said previously:

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Originally Posted by Litre

all these challenges can be surmounted with good enough gear, but only months after the content is released. This way the hardcore get a chance to beat it at the start and when they get better gear, they can help their guildmates through it later. This gives me an incentive to obtain that gear, which is also absent from the game due to the heavy reliance on insta-kill mechanics.

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You're definitely a veteran player, but I feel you're not understanding me either, we (FFXI players such as the OP) don't mind 90/10 split or even if it's 80/20 or 70/30 as you say it is, it doesn't matter, as long as at the end of the day, if one day I can foresee a group of similarly skilled people (not carried) have an easier time clearing something. With stuff like Titan EX I don't foresee that, if nothing is changed even with 25% echo buff they still die, that's too harsh, they shouldn't need to be carried, gear should just naturally progress and if a fight is balanced properly even a fight that is 90% mechanics can be one day handled by overgeared players, as bad as they may be.

Thing is like the OP said:

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Originally Posted by EmiliM

Once again, this is not a post about making arguments like "well I think the game is fun because I can clear the contents" or "you just don't think it's fun because you can't clear the contents" .

To make such an argument is like having someone say to you "I have practiced, reviewed and studied hard to learn English and now I can read and write English at the top-university level and have no problems with daily English conversations so it's fun for me. A ton of people in the world also speak English, so if you work hard at it you can be just like us too!" (You'd think "what a snob!")

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[*]As for all those "but it's really not that hard, just do this and this and I could do this with my eyes closed, people cry too much" comments. That's the problem the OP tried to point out that the beginning of his/her article (the "learning English" part). It may be easy for you (more power to you), but it's not easy and not fun for many others, that's the whole point.

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I feel that's addresses your comments pretty decently. You like your mechanics based content, great, lots already for you, that doesn't go the same for casual/mainstream players. Regardless people will vote with their time, when FFXIV is on the decline, it'll be because of the issues addressed by the OP.

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Originally Posted by EmiliM

lol wow, I expected this to be controversial but you guys really went to town with this one :p

I abused my OP status and added my own two cents to the original post. Feel free to agree/disagree. Chew me out if you want. But at the end of the day, I think all of us want the game to become better, so let's try to get as many people's opinion on this as possible. Um, in a civil manner, of course.

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Yeah totally agree with that. Yet it's kind of expecting much from elitist to want to give the time of day to the casual player base. That's just how the american culture is.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

You haven't played FFXI recently SE is going through redoing most all old bcnm fights and mission fights Zilart, AA ect for the level 99+ cap and dropping new gear or items to upgrade old af, and relic gear. Its pretty much the same exact fights people done for ages now only redone for lv99. And they play almost the same as they did back before the 99 cap only the mobs have 99+ stats

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originally in xi you had to put in years to level and get your gear. neither of those are true anymore.

in xiv1.0 you had to put in a bunch of time to level and get your gear. this isn't true anymore either.

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Originally Posted by EmiliM

lol wow, I expected this to be controversial but you guys really went to town with this one :p

I abused my OP status and added my own two cents to the original post. Feel free to agree/disagree. Chew me out if you want. But at the end of the day, I think all of us want the game to become better, so let's try to get as many people's opinion on this as possible. Um, in a civil manner, of course.

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I think for me it's just a sigh of relief that this topic is being pushed to the forefront, actually with the next patch we will see some random elements added I read. But from being on a JP server we've hashed this out many times, even if many disagree it's good to be able to have this discussion. Though I wonder if our English forum's chatter ever reaches dev ears, I'd be more interested in hearing good arguments from the JP side.

Myth #1 : Bosses have to be insta death mechanic driven or it's tank and spank - it's one extreme or the other.

Truth : There can be a compromise and there have been plenty of games for the past 20 years that have had fun and difficult bosses that didn't rely on overuse of these mechanics.

Myth #2 : Players asking for variation in encounter design want things to be "easier"

Truth : Some players want a varied play experience and some feel the current design undermines motives for attaining some current rewards and discourages or prohibits grouping options.

Myth #3 : The developers have to choose ALL one way or ALL the other

Truth : Devs can be flexible or create content for different types of play

... so if you disagree with the OP, great. Why do some people keep posting trying to argue with other players about thier experiences?

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Originally Posted by o3o

I disagree with nearly all of that post.

If there were no mechanics like that. Basicly every single fight would turn into a tank and spank.

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Argh... Please read the follow-up on the OP post, but anyways this sums it up: "I'm not saying that gimmicks/mechanics are evil and should be removed completely, just that fights should not be “driven” by them."

No one wants a tank and spank!

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Originally Posted by Litre

Argh... Please read the follow-up on the OP post, but anyways this sums it up: "I'm not saying that gimmicks/mechanics are evil and should be removed completely, just that fights should not be “driven” by them."

No one wants a tank and spank!

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Of course the OP doesn't want just tank and spank. What the OP wants is irrelevant mechanics and gear carried encounters.

"Oh sorry guys, I got hit by that red circle... hehehe. Healz pls."

Let me tell you what happens when a party member gets hit by a "mechanic" that isn't deadly: nothing. As a healer, I just toss some AoE or simply let Eos deal with it. Maybe, if I'm bored, I may actually bother healing the person hit directly... though honestly I'd probably just toss a Bio or something instead.

Why? Because if you aren't going to die from a mechanic then there's really no rush to heal your HP.

Unless, of course, you want a sequence of non deadly mechanics that will kill you if you aren't healed in between them, to which I ask: why so adamant on moving all the game difficulty on the healers and tanks? That would simply make healers complain "this is too hard!" and we are back to square one.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Yeah totally agree with that. Yet it's kind of expecting much from elitist to want to give the time of day to the casual player base. That's just how the american culture is.

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I'm sure victimizing your position is going to help push the argument forward. Yes, that's sarcasm. I've read this whole thread and quite honestly I see nothing that looks like a personal attack or an ego trip.

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Originally Posted by Iriadysa

Of course the OP doesn't want just tank and spank. What the OP wants is irrelevant mechanics and gear carried encounters.

Unless, of course, you want a sequence of non deadly mechanics that will kill you if you aren't healed in between them, to which I ask: why so adamant on moving all the game difficulty on the healers and tanks? That would simply make healers complain "this is too hard!" and we are back to square one.

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*See Myth 1 & Myth 3

(See? I even numbered them, so you could tell before responding which myth you might be invoking)

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Originally Posted by Litre

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I can understand where that point is coming from but I'm still not agreeing to it.

Some fights are meant to have a certain sense of difficulty, some fights are meant to be the toughest, like coil2.

Whilst gear itself can be seen as largely irrelevant to instant kill mechanics, but the thing is not all mechanics are instant kill. In fact, most are not. This is where gear could help you in a way or another.

Higher HP means you can endure hits better, for example, less prone to getting knocked out by tumults when you didn't manage to get topped off earlier. Higher HP from gears also helps you in enduring big hits such as Circle of Flames from Melusine or able to eat Nael's double dive without heals or you could eat double dive with a Second Wind self heal if your healers happened to get caught in something else.

Having better gear also ensure that you can deal more damage given the same skill level which actually can save the fight when shit hits the fan. For example, in one of my recent carry runs on Titan EX, 2 DPS accidentally fell down due to miscomm and it was left with me (BRD) and a SMN. Because we are so geared (i110 weapons and average ilvl over 100) we can still go past Superbombs safely. Of course this is an example if being severely overgearred but it doesn't change the fact that gear helps. In fact Titan EX was doable with 3 DPS back then in 2.1 with i90 gears shows that gear can help.

Some of these tough mechanics are recoverable thou. We've recovered from 1-2 deaths from kiters and healers in T7, dead DPS on Turn 8. I've seen many teams on Turn 9 having DPS die a couple of times and still cleared. Depends on the severity of the mistake - and of course, gear helps in here. When starting out in T9 with i95ish gears having your DPS die 1 or 2 time may result in you hitting the enraged timer, but as you gear up having your DPS die 1 or 2 times to divebombs or elemental attacks aren't too bad as your other geared DPS can cover for the loss. Gear is not that irrelevant, but only irrelevant when you make big ass mistakes such as firing your curse voice across the area and freezing almost everyone else.

With all these said, let us recall that most of the most punishing mechanics are either scripted or have some major indicator coming. One shouldn't be caught surprised by it. Say T5, Twintania disappears and you know it's time for divebombs so by the conventional strat, move your butt into the pit and get ready. There's really quite some time allowance there, it's not like DB indicators come 1s after Twinny disappears. The reason you can't make it in time is probably you are losing concentration. Cursed Voice from T7 have a timer ranging from 5s-9s - misfiring it is totally your fault (yes at times I lost concentration and misfire too).

Let us discount those who insist that they enter blind - with so many nice players out there making written guides and video guides, and assuming that the player have practiced umpteen times on it but still making the same old mistake (such as eating Lunar Dynamo on T9 after say hours of practice) - who else other than that player is to blame? :(

Don't get me wrong thou. I won't say I am a hardcore elitist but I won't say I'm not one. But I will try to be fair whenever I can. In this case I can only say that if one have did their homework and after hours of practice and making the same mistake over and over again, either keep practicing and improve yourself, if not that player is really undeserving to clear. I do get punished when I failed mechanics myself and I could only blame myself for it. I mean I know what's coming and I still failed to it afterall - it's like you see an oncoming train and you still walked into it :(

Ultimately it is up to SE to decide the direction of the game. So far what I can only see is that SE have no intention to make this a game catered to the hardcore but trying to be as inclusive as they can. Not perfect as they are now and there are still issues such as server lags which they could address better, but I can see a certain direction. It appears that SE wants to make it all inclusive so I won't be surprised that coil will be as tough as they could offer without making it overly hardcore.

Meanwhile if anyone wants to play a game where things aren't as punishing maybe there are some more casual MMOs or even single player RPGs out there which gear does make things easier, allowing you to faceroll through it (most FF non MMOs are like that anyways, grind and overpower yourself and the story boss is a joke). There are really a lot of games out there with vairying difficulty from mindless hack and slash to some kind of difficulty where you have to learn a combat system, gear attributes or even managing combos etc.

Practically speaking I think SE have been accommodating to suggestions or request that they would accommodate. But if their direction is to make this came accommodating all players from casuals to hardcores, then it is inevitable that coil will be tough. It would be inevitable that there will be very very punishing mechanics that would differentiate those who has the skill to manage it or those who simply can't, such as those who still dies to T5 divebombs despite trying for months. As such if one thinks that this game is too tough then one should probably move on to a more enjoyable game. Don't get me wrong again here but what I mean is there is no point paying for a game you won't even find it enjoyable and entertaining. I'm sure Yoshida gets this himself that he will not able to satisfy everyone.

The game is still new and personally I'm still watching it. TBH I don't find 2.2 as enjoyable as 2.1 - 2.1 is still the most enjoyable patch. The balls is still on Yoshida and his team to decide the direction of the game, whether they could convince their bosses that this is the direction and to convince them that this is the direction despite any sales loss or that this direction is the result of the good sales they get etc. In fact Yoshida may not even have that much power we think he have. It may be even up to SE higher ups to decide FF14 should be a game with some difficult but may get lesser revenue or to cheese it to grab more casual sales. But certainly if FF14 degrades to something like KOEI's Dynasty Warriors series I wouldn't be paying a monthly subscription of this much to play it though.

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Originally Posted by EmiliM

[*]The majority of players don't care about a T9 clear and ilvl115 weapons (or whatever the latest top achievement is) because they're still stuck on contents 2 patches ago. While everyone would agree that only the top players should get the best rewards, if people have nothing to aspire to or look forward to in an MMO, then they won't stick around for long. By the time SE comes around to "tend" to them, they're long gone.

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First off, thank you for the wonderful translation. I appreciate stuff like this, even if you just did it because you were bored. :P

As what the OP would consider a borderline casual/mainstream player (who could probably hardcore with the big boys if I just had the time to devote to it), I would like to add my 2 cents on this. I totally agree that the best rewards should go to the top players. HOWEVER, I think EVERYONE should have access to the content itself. Perhaps an *EZ MODE* for raids and such that can is more forgiving to the more casual players. It would obviously have a completely different loot list and the rewards would not be top-tier, but at least everyone would have the ability to see the content (especially the story aspects of the content). From what I've seen in write-ups, Coil has some really interesting story reveals, but most players will *never get to see them.*

To me, that's sorta like writing the last novel in a super popular book series in Latin. Could you imagine the outrage, especially if people who knew Latin already were like 'lol, noobs, go to school and learn Latin if you wanna be hardcore enough to read this book!'

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Yeah totally agree with that. Yet it's kind of expecting much from elitist to want to give the time of day to the casual player base. That's just how the american culture is.

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Sadly, this is true. It's why people who are privileged enough to not be poor seem to have complete and utter disdain for those who *are* poor. It's the same elitist, entitled attitude. "Why should I help you with anything? You're obviously too bad at life/this game/whatever to handle it yourself, so you don't deserve anything." That attitude bleeds into everything in our culture, including MMOs.

I feel if Square-Enix down-leveled gear in the 50 dungeons like they do in the lower level dungeons we would have a better playerbase overall. As it stands, anyone can get geared from low level dungeons, main story, dailies ect... then once they hit the real challenges, they dont know how to behave because they've never had to do anything beyond "have fun" or "do whatever" in these other area's.

I'm sure there are tons of people that have not done Pharos Sirius in AF Gear. There are STILL people to this day that can't handle the first boss in i70+. They are so used to winging it and thinking gear can get them through everything that they never learn properly.

Back on topic: Scripted is fine --- But random elements need to be added some of the time. New jobs that are coming can provide this opportunity.. See support jobs like (for EXAMPLE) the Time Mage. Give them Dispel as an ability.. and give some random boss a chance to randomly cast haste, protect, regen, or whatever on itself... Allow it to be interruptable too so there's no *requirement* for the Time Mage to be there when another Job can do the function too.

Square is just being too afraid to deviate from a boring, easy development style that "works" and they're afraid to try anything new. ... And its not even new.

Superb work translating this Emilia... and my sincere gratitude to the Japanese player who wrote this spectacular perspective. The OP's post actually made my day because it echoed several of my sentiments exactly... and I mean, EXACTLY.

It is so glaring that that the largest demographic of the game (the Casuals) have all yet to still challenge the Extreme Primals or Second Coil; and the alarming thing is that several of them are beginning to leave and/or stop playing altogether. It doesn't make it any easier on them that the behaviour of the "elitists" players towards them is just overwhelmingly hostile. Its not just the higher level content... its that they cant even get help for the simple little things around the game. Let me explain:

On Friday, a new player sent me a tell while I was near the Inn at Limsa and asked if there was a way to watch some of the cutscenes he had been forced to skip. I responded that he'd have to look under "Duties". He thanked me then mentioned that he wanted to watch all of them again before he quit the game the following day (May 31st). I asked him why and he just simply said because all the higher level players are always so hostile when he tried to clear higher level content. He said he loved the game and practiced a lot but was now frustrated with the atmosphere. I asked him if he had asked his FC for help... he responded that they only did Second Coil static amoungst themselves, then he thanked me again and promptly logged off.

Sound familiar?

Then just yesterday, I was on my BLM waiting for a FATE for one of my Zodiac books at the Shroud Aetheryte. Then saw a shout for a raise... and there were at least 20 to 25 high level players at the camp. Not a single one of them responded. I thought, "ok fair enough; they're all AFK". I swapped to WHM, jumped on my mount and rode out there... even got killed when I reached the player and had to ride out there again.

After I raised her, I asked if she was waiting for a FATE in the area. She responded that she had been trying to look for the treasure chest for her SMN relic but couldn't find it and kept getting killed because of the high number of monsters in the area (she had both her Titan and her Chocobo out to help her do battle). I swapped back onto my BLM and helped her clear the area while we both looked for her relic chest. We finally got it and she was of course very thankful and then mentioned something that didnt surprise me... she said something along the lines of some things being difficult because she kept having to try several things alone and nobody would help.

Now, don't get me wrong... understand that what the OP was saying is not about making the game simpler or easier so that unskilled players can clear higher level content (and Emilie clearly mentions this in her post)... its just that even the core principle of people helping each other with simple mundane tasks is now largely ignored. 90% of the casuals don't really care about all the high level loot and just want to achieve certain things in Eorzea. Period

Eh, I dont mind the idea of having fights where you can still recover from a death or what not(I mean realistically you can recover in t9 though), but i dont really want the fight where i can go I saved all your asses. That feeling may be nice, but id rather have the feeling of accomplishing something together where all played their part well, as i did tonight when my grp beat t9 for the first time.

Overall I disagree with the OP. I like the mechanics-driven fights. I like learning the dance, and dealing with a little randomness here and there. I liked finally getting titan ex with a grp of people in an LS who also wanted to get it down no matter how many times they wiped at first. Not saying the game cant improve, i just dont think OP's suggestions would improve it. But alas, i do not feel like writing an essay on the matter. So I bid you adieu.

This is the first mmo I stuck around to play, so I have zero experience with the end game scene in other mmos. So out of curiousity I want to ask, do other mmos rely on insta-death mechanics in the same manner ffxiv does? are the raids/trial styles similar as in they have scripted patterns and get out of aoe asap style?

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Originally Posted by Iriadysa

Of course the OP doesn't want just tank and spank. What the OP wants is irrelevant mechanics and gear carried encounters.

"Oh sorry guys, I got hit by that red circle... hehehe. Healz pls."

Let me tell you what happens when a party member gets hit by a "mechanic" that isn't deadly: nothing. As a healer, I just toss some AoE or simply let Eos deal with it. Maybe, if I'm bored, I may actually bother healing the person hit directly... though honestly I'd probably just toss a Bio or something instead.

Why? Because if you aren't going to die from a mechanic then there's really no rush to heal your HP.

Unless, of course, you want a sequence of non deadly mechanics that will kill you if you aren't healed in between them, to which I ask: why so adamant on moving all the game difficulty on the healers and tanks? That would simply make healers complain "this is too hard!" and we are back to square one.

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First, tell me which part of the game isn't heavily relying on tank/healers ?

I've done all the content up to levi Ex and T5 with both my i95 WAR and i84 bard. I've been up to T2 and garuda Ex on my i75 DRG.

Well, my experience so far is : dps is ez mode. You only have to care about instant kill mechanics, while tanks and healers have to deal with a lot more mechanics in between. And don't tell me "there are dps checks", because these are only here to know if you have enough gear to beat the content, or if you know your job.

On the other hand, healers (from what I see, since I have no healer at end game) have a lot of stress to make up for the group's mistake (if they are forgiving...), and tanks have to be careful about the horrible positioning of their comrades, the AoE hate rampage of some healers, the lack of focus of some teams, etc etc... The whole game revolves around tanks and healers, and dps are just here to dance around doing the missing dps to kill before timers.


What if, for some fights, tanks would just have to tank (aka taking damage for the party) without dancing around to avoid 10s of AoEs, while making it easier for dps in the same time ? What if healers would just have to heal, without having to wonder every damn second if they won't make one of the dps die if they continue to save the tank's ass ?
What if dps had the difficult part of the fight for one time ? Just like, you lose if your dps isn't good enough, not because one of you lagged/failed a jump/was learning ?
(of course if you're learning it would still be difficult in some way, with a few mechanics. Key word is : "few")

The last patch (well it's been the case since Ex primals) introduced only fights with "1 death => wipe" for the masses. "Normal" people can't recover from a death in SCoB, or in titan Ex, or similar fights. Nothing is really difficult as far as I can tell. It's just "DDR : ARR", and you get "Game Over" screen if one of the 7 other players misses a step. This is BS. There is no difficulty in one-shot mechanics. You just die the time you learn them, and then it's a perfect score every single time you attempt it.

And yeah, I said "not difficult", because a fight you can do without any errors just because your learned the pattern is not "difficult".

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Originally Posted by AiChyan

This is the first mmo I stuck around to play, so I have zero experience with the end game scene in other mmos. So out of curiousity I want to ask, do other mmos rely on insta-death mechanics in the same manner ffxiv does? are the raids/trial styles similar as in they have scripted patterns and get out of aoe asap style?

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I played a few obscure korean MMOs, which relied on really hard bosses which required like 50-100 players to clear them, with like 3 or 4 AoEs in total. All the AoEs were instant death for non-tank players though, but the majority of the fight was mostly "survive the attacks, kill the adds popping, pary for the boss to die before enrage". But on the other hand they were on the shitty "grind your level and gear with 1 to 5% probability to loot/enhance your gear" soooo... I don't miss them that much.

That said, many western MMOs are going the "pattern" way, because it seems harder at first (yay, hardcore players will be happy the time they beat it) and then become piece of cake once you master them (yay, mainstream/casuals will beat it in 3 month/2 years, they'll stay). I'd say it's a right "commercial choice" if you want to keep people playing for the fights.

If you really want them to stay though, you gotta give them something to do. Atma was in a way a step in the right direction (socialization, even though it only lasted 3 weeks). The union feature they are planning for 2.4 *CAN* become a really good feature for socialization too. Treasure and monster hunts, as well as exploration log, will add things to do if you want to explore the world with friends. But well, for now that's all. As many said in various topic, you can't go in a dungeon with like 6 or 20 people, just for the fun of it.

I really like what you have mentioned too, but I have one comment maybe you forgot and I am guess that is why the Dev took this direction in development.
When started, FFXIV ARR had a good number of players " Legacey Players" at lvl 50 and alot were already at itme lvl ~70 when the game came out. I am guessing SE did what they did just to slow the progress of the players and have more time to spend in developing the game.

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Originally Posted by Mapleine

Encounter design is one of the best things this game does. The very pattern based, very kinetic, very team driven feeling is what makes these types of game shine at cap. If anything we need more of it outside of the end game, that leveling to cap disconnect is a big problem in the genre right now.

When I started seeing examples of FFXI encounter design like it was something to be lauded my eyes just kind of glazed over. I liked that game, for what it was, back in 2005 but there is nothing to learn from it in terms of combat, mechanics, encounters, etc. It was and is a vague and awkward EQ-like with all of the nonsense that comes with that dark ages design methodology.

There are plenty of things this game could use like better itemization, more options and venues for gearing and customizing... Looking back at the dark age of the genre where difficulty was solely fueled by timesinks and vague, almost superstitious nonsense is about the last thing we need to be doing right now.

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quote for new page, i agree.

edit: I disagree with OP, while the endgame content are mechanic heavy they aren't very strict or even punishable and you can reasonably prepare for them if you practice enough or done your homework.

This game is successful.

There is nothing wrong with end game content.

SE shouldn't fix something that is not broken.

There are so many things wrong with this post, it's not even worth mentioning it.

Respect lost to the OP AND the translator and those who agree with this post.

I'm not even sorry.

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Originally Posted by Ragecake

"I think you say BS but I have no counter arguments so I'll just try to insult you and to make you sorry for not being as happy as I am"

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sorry for the little trolling here but you do not contribute at all and your post can be summarized pretty easily by what I wrote....

Instead of just saying "Nay", could you people try to argue a little bit ? like, trying to justify how a mechanic driven fight can be harder than what you call "tank and spank" ?
(besides the learning time, which can be pretty long in both case)

No, he's purely trolling, probably the first of a flood of players since maintenance began... The game is successful ---> therefore it is perfect ---> nothing needs to be changed... Haha love that rational reasoning right! It's ok for him, therefore it must be ok for everyone, since he is the only person in the world!

Anyways back to the topic, please remember and read carefully the OP msg, that many of you are biased based on your skill level, there is already a noticeable exodus of players, if not players leaving, just players playing less and less, nobody cares anymore. The hardcore players are unhappy because they can't help other players and there's no fruits for their labor, and the casuals are unhappy because there are mechanics roadblocks they can't pass easily.


Then there's a bunch of mainstream players who either enjoy it as it currently is, likely because there is still doable content they can clear and have yet to. Or are slowly getting frustrated by wiping from honest mistakes by other players, with no chance of salvaging the fight. Especially as they start farming some primals or early coil, where mechanics become even more unforgiving.


If they don't add more content that casual players can access, or at the very least content that mainstream players can help casual players with, there will be no community to keep them from finding a more accessible game.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Some of these tough mechanics are recoverable thou. We've recovered from 1-2 deaths from kiters and healers in T7, dead DPS on Turn 8. I've seen many teams on Turn 9 having DPS die a couple of times and still cleared. Depends on the severity of the mistake - and of course, gear helps in here. When starting out in T9 with i95ish gears having your DPS die 1 or 2 time may result in you hitting the enraged timer, but as you gear up having your DPS die 1 or 2 times to divebombs or elemental attacks aren't too bad as your other geared DPS can cover for the loss. Gear is not that irrelevant, but only irrelevant when you make big ass mistakes such as firing your curse voice across the area and freezing almost everyone else.



With all these said, let us recall that most of the most punishing mechanics are either scripted or have some major indicator coming. One shouldn't be caught surprised by it. Say T5, Twintania disappears and you know it's time for divebombs so by the conventional strat, move your butt into the pit and get ready. There's really quite some time allowance there, it's not like DB indicators come 1s after Twinny disappears. The reason you can't make it in time is probably you are losing concentration. Cursed Voice from T7 have a timer ranging from 5s-9s - misfiring it is totally your fault (yes at times I lost concentration and misfire too).

Don't get me wrong thou. I won't say I am a hardcore elitist but I won't say I'm not one. But I will try to be fair whenever I can. In this case I can only say that if one have did their homework and after hours of practice and making the same mistake over and over again, either keep practicing and improve yourself, if not that player is really undeserving to clear.

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Thanks for your well thought out post :) But I guess you can see your own bias, you do your homework and love the challenge and overcoming it, I do too. But all the recoveries from mistakes you mention happened in the end-game, you have good players already pushing through the hardest content. I think at that level things are fine as they are, it's new content, what we are saying is that even that content should be doable EVENTUALLY by players that are simply unable to dodge every mechanic.


Fixing this is as easy as, instead of this mechanic not being instant death, it does something like 6k damage! Pretty much death for anyone with current gear, but in 2 months even DPS might have 8-9k HP and be able to survive one of those. In this way gear is more relevant and becomes increasingly more relevant as time goes on and content becomes accessible to more people, simply because they have better gear.

Like it or not, there's plenty of players there that need that 25% echo boost to even stand a chance, I would argue that eventually maybe 3-4 months after content is released, it'd be possible to be 50% stronger than those who cleared it the first time, so echo 25% + gear 25%. Right now there's plenty of mechanics that even with 100% of a boost you cannot survive, Titan EX keeps coming up in this respect - give us 25% knockback resist with echo, that way if someone runs to the middle they might die but least not be knocked off etc...

This is what we mean by balancing the mechanics vs gear dependency, if it's 100% mechanics and 0% gear, then you either memorize the patterns or you'll never beat it. If it's 90% mechanics and 10% gear, it's unlikely to be possible for a group of unskilled players to beat it, but a couple or few may be able to beat it with others carrying them.

Frankly even an encounter at 70% mechanics/30% gear dependent will be very hard/unbeatable by some casual players, now put yourself in their shoes, you can't find a group of 8 that can dodge mechanics reliably for the life of you, higher levels don't care about you, nor can they help you much. And you've basically reached the end of the game, it's stonewalled and you're frustrated, some will keep practicing others will give up.

Now imagine if there were alternative paths to try to get better gear such as, quests, materia, buying better gear, this gives them something to strive for, they can get closer and closer to winning, you can't improve your ability to dodge, you're just not that skilled, but you have a way around this, and at least one day you know you can beat it, isn't that a lot more optimistic?

The hardcore can have their insta kill, 100% mechanic battles, knock yourselves out and you deserve the best gear for that, the casuals shouldn't have to face something so frustrating, unless they go off the beaten mainstream/casual path for a challenge, I'd be happy if they did, but not everyone's the same.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

sorry for the little trolling here but...

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I love how you apologize like you're being hurtful.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Instead of just saying "Nay", could you people try to argue a little bit ? like, trying to justify how a mechanic driven fight can be harder than what you call "tank and spank" ?
(besides the learning time, which can be pretty long in both case)

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

(besides the learning time, which can be pretty long in both case)

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LEARNING?

What is there to learn in a tank and spank?

WHAT!?

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Originally Posted by Litre

The game is successful ---> therefore it is perfect ---> nothing needs to be changed...

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I never said this. Straw man argument.

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Originally Posted by Litre

It's ok for him, therefore it must be ok for everyone, since he is the only person in the world!

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^--Works both ways.

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Originally Posted by Litre

It's bad for me. Therefore it must be bad for everyone, since I'm the only person in the world.

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Okay now I'm done. See ya! ;)

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Originally Posted by Litre

Anyways back to the topic, please remember and read carefully the OP msg, that many of you are biased based on your skill level, there is already a noticeable exodus of players, if not players leaving, just players playing less and less, nobody cares anymore. The hardcore players are unhappy because they can't help other players and there's no fruits for their labor, and the casuals are unhappy because there are mechanics roadblocks they can't pass easily.

If they don't add more content that casual players can access, or at the very least content that mainstream players can help casual players with, there will be no community to keep them from finding a more accessible game.

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Totally.

Yet one of the things I learned from the other MMO's I've played is that all that hard work amounts to nothing. Replacing a group of friends just to play with another more skilled and capable group of individuals that may or may not become your friends isn't really gratifying for me. It was simply just another experience with a different group, akin to having a change of class the following semester and not being put in the same class room with your actual long term friends.

I don't need to force myself and progress and stress over it. If there is a roadblock there that stops the people I play with from progressing I can do my best to pull more weight or simply accept that the roadblock is there and the party will eventually break and all I can do is simply put that time into something else which is what I've been doing. I didn't have much to do between 2.2-2.28 once I finished my Animus outside of that all I had was beast tribe dailies and soldiery farm then nothing but free time for me to play other games inbetween.

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Originally Posted by Ragecake

See ya!

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See ya too ^^

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

I don't need to force myself and progress and stress over it. If there is a roadblock there that stops the people I play with from progressing I can do my best to pull more weight or simply accept that the roadblock is there and the party will eventually break and all I can do is simply put that time into something else which is what I've been doing. I didn't have much to do between 2.2-2.28 once I finished my Animus outside of that all I had was beast tribe dailies and soldiery farm then nothing but free time for me to play other games inbetween.

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Ya but people hitting a roadblock, then playing less and less because they're frustrated and see no way around that roadblock is exactly the problem we're trying to address. And it sounds like you have personal experience with that, so in cases like this I rather these players see something on the horizon that lets them know that eventually, at their skill level they will be able to clear that content.

It might take a bit more work (ATMA farming, farming gil for better gear/materia, etc) but eventually! Right now there is no light at the end of the tunnel for these guys, and they'll leave, there's plenty of MMOs out there, but I don't want to see FFXIV fail. Now with the JP post the OP translated, seeing the agreement and constructive arguments here, I have a renewed sense of optimism, that heck if we're making a big deal out of this on both sides of the pacific, maybe they'll listen.

And once again we're not asking for drastic changes, we are asking for a balancing of some mechanics, "mechanics" that insta-kill now should still be "mechanics" that insta-kill now, but one day with proper gear they "won't insta-kill". So maybe they become auto-dodgable, or when you have a certain iLvl they should do 25% less damage/knockback whatever. If casual players knew that, they would be a lot more eager to reach that iLvl/dodge skill and try again.