PVP Wintrade Exploitation, is this reportable?

So by your logic RMT and botting is fine. If the system is poorly made let the players respond to it how they like. Oh ya that does already happen and they get banned.
So if let's say a future patch happens and people who wintraded without a definite "no" from SE came get banned. They have no right to argue against it because, they knew they were using the system as it wasn't intended and just wanted to respond to the poorly made system as it was.

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Originally Posted by Shinun

Let's say the people who wintraded only did it for glamour. Then they shouldn't be allowed at all in any pvp content. They got items in a way that wasn't attendend and will be able to abuse other players trying to partake in future content that might not have the items because they are still in the process of the legitimiate grind

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I would be totally 100% fine with this. In fact, if SE offered a version of the pvp gear with 0 stats that you could farm solo, I'd be ok with this too. Then you could actually crack down on pvp win trading because you'd know the people doing it wouldn't be doing it for glamours.

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Originally Posted by Shinun

So by your logic RMT and botting is fine. If the system is poorly made let the players respond to it how they like. Oh ya that does already happen and they get banned.
So if let's say a future patch happens and people who wintraded without a definite "no" from SE came get banned. They have no right to argue against it because, they knew they were using the system as it wasn't intended and just wanted to respond to the poorly made system as it was.

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This is a no. No one said botting is ok. No one is endorsing using a 3rd party program to automatically queue for pvp, enter with your character, and run around until the match is over to get points. No one is saying this is ok for PvE either. Its really not the same because you aren't manipulating the code to do something its not supposed to do. If SE was really worried about win trading, then SE should have implemented a system that didn't allow 8 people to find a way to queue 4v4 together.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

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You are getting way out of topic here. Patches makes older content easier, thats a design MMO's been using for ages so ofc people are gonna go thru old content faster then when they were released.

And yeah, people lessen their grind and play together by grouping up to do, to use your examples, by doing Fates together. No exploit there, using the system as it should be used. But to compare to win trading you have to go to the instance of a where you have a full grp and theres some members thats been on followmode on another active member since start and does jack for the xp or rewards or whatever. Do you think the active members in that grp think its fair their doing what they should to get what they want, while the ones leeching off on follow mode is not doing jack?

Win trading is a behaviour in players that want to take the fast and effortless way to to reach the end and has been a bannable offense for exploiting the queue system in quite alot of games. I dont liek to bring the name up but im gonna say for example WoW and SWTOR.

Right now it seems that every comparisons you have come up with is totally off track and have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

If you can convince ADS to lay down and trade wins with you, then sure. Go for it.

Oh wait... people already do that with enrage strat, and SE said go for it.

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not first coil turn 2, second coil as that gives the best PvE gear. Even with enrage, you can still fail.

Answer me this: Whats worse, win trading with a group of 7 other people all on the same page, or joining a pvp queue solo with the intention of just standing there and gaining losers points while you watch tv or read a book?

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Originally Posted by MakoRaiju

Right now it seems that every comparisons you have come up with is totally off track and have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

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They just grasping at any straw or irrelevance to try and defend the actions.

Like the strawman argument "I only want for glamor".

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

They just grasping at any straw or irrelevance to try and defend the actions.

Like the strawman argument "I only want for glamor".

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Orz. How is it a strawmans argument if its the truth? First off, let me go on record by saying that I have actually never pvp win traded. But after playing a bunch of pvp matches, I definitely am not holding it against anyone if they want to. PVP IS A JOKE. Even with insane gear, its a joke. There are currently two viable strategies: kill the healer or kill the black mage. Thats it. And I'm really not that good at it. But i will continue to join pvp queues, piss off other players with my terrible skills, and grind it out to get the dope looking gears that I want. And when I get them, i'll most likely stop.

Who's really hurt by this? The 3 other players in all of my countless parties because I suck at pvp. If I win traded my way to those gears, then those countless other party members would have never had to deal with my abysmal pvp talent, the world would continue to turn and the beat goes on.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

Answer me this: Whats worse, win trading with a group of 7 other people all on the same page, or joining a pvp queue solo with the intention of just standing there and gaining losers points while you watch tv or read a book?

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Neither is good, which is better is also another irrelevant argument. Just because one thing is worse than another, does not make either of them good.

Can we just stop trying to justify laziness?

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Originally Posted by LeonRegulus

Neither is good, which is better is also another irrelevant argument. Just because one thing is worse than another, does not make either of them good.

Can we just stop trying to justify laziness?

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Can we just stop being gated by meaningless time-sinks?

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Originally Posted by LeonRegulus

Neither is good, which is better is also another irrelevant argument. Just because one thing is worse than another, does not make either of them good.

Can we just stop trying to justify laziness?

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Laziness was justified when SE decided that the losers get points too.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

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If a debate this strong is going on on multiple threads then clearly theirs a divide on it, and whatever way SE decides to agree on their will be an effect. If they agree with wintrading the Wolves Den will be in an even worse state then it is now. If they disagree with Wintrading what can they do.

1. They'll either look the other way for the people who already abused the system.

2. They'll Rollback players who wintraded.

3. They'll ban players who wintraded.

All in their right to do whatever they choose to do. But, I can guarentee if they ban players. The people who were wintrading because they didn't like the system as it is and decided to take matters in their own hands will not be happy on the subject, even if beforehand they thought even in the slightest SE didn't want them to do what they were doing.

FFXI;
Show up on any Job/Sub combo for lv30/40/50/Max cap PVP.

Everyone goes and signs up and participated and had PVP that had objectives. Ranks were based on kills, scoring, and how you measure up to your contemporary's performance. Jobs had "Chevrons" you won for being the best at your role and when people examined you during PVP it showed your Chevron count so people knew who was going to require a hell-of-a-lot more strategy to take down so you could get your team gatebreak to score.

(Oh hey Ballista I missed you)

Enjoyed it? Join a LS - build a team.

Here;
PVP in FFXIV = I sat here and either won a lot, lost a lot, or traded a lot and this shiny gear proves I spent time doing it.

Rank 40 doesn't mean you're the bees-knees. Shiny gear doesn't tell me if you're a strategist and able adapt during combat.

It's meaningless. It's the least interesting and most backward concept of PVP prowess that could ever exist.

PVP should never be about grinding up a rank and out gearing your opponent; but that is what Square Enix has implemented.


That's why people trade wins.

Crying about trading is being blind to the actual problem.

The actual problem is the design and structure of the PVP itself.

It needs to change, and until they change it I have no issues with anyone bold enough to say "screw this stupid bulls#$%" and doing it their own way.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

PVP IS A JOKE. Even with insane gear, its a joke. There are currently two viable strategies: kill the healer or kill the black mage. Thats it. And I'm really not that good at it. But i will continue to join pvp queues, piss off other players with my terrible skills, and grind it out to get the dope looking gears that I want. And when I get them, i'll most likely stop.

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Which is still NO EXCUSE to cheat the system. Don't like it, DON'T DO IT! I don't, so I don't.

Loser reward is an incentive in gear progression PvP to keep players who lose a lot to continue trying, because they are still gaining, albeit at a slower pace.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

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And if your going to take that stance then if SE lays down penalties be it rollbacks or banned, you have no right to argue against it.

the forum pvp is way better than any pvp in this game. /thread

http://i.imgur.com/uAIIs0Q.gif

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Which is still NO EXCUSE to cheat the system. Don't like it, DON'T DO IT! I don't, so I don't.

Loser reward is an incentive in gear progression PvP to keep players who lose a lot to continue trying, because they are still gaining, albeit at a slower pace.

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the thing is its not slower pace, even if you are bad at pvp you will have around 50% wins if you are not healer and guess what, wintraders have 50% wins too so where is the difference ? takes same time and no effort if queues are fast. Ppl doing wintrades only because queues takes too much time.

The arguments in this thread just seem really baseless. For or against win trading, can they truly punish those who actually did win trade? At this point I only do the weekly things for PVP in the challenge log, but that takes longer to queue for than a dps in a low level sungeon, it's insane. What's not to say that SE does deem this "illegal", how would they know who differentiated between a friendly, fun wintrade vs. grinding wintrade. I know PVP linkshells, and am sure they do 4v4s all the time. The only real way I could see the devs justifiably banning these people is to look at the time in matches. Just my two cents, are we supposed to ban those people pvping for fun? Trying to make quick levels out of the dreadful system too?

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

The arguments in this thread just seem really baseless. For or against win trading, can they truly punish those who actually did win trade? At this point I only do the weekly things for PVP in the challenge log, but that takes longer to queue for than a dps in a low level sungeon, it's insane. What's not to say that SE does deem this "illegal", how would they know who differentiated between a friendly, fun wintrade vs. grinding wintrade. I know PVP linkshells, and am sure they do 4v4s all the time. The only real way I could see the devs justifiably banning these people is to look at the time in matches. Just my two cents, are we supposed to ban those people pvping for fun? Trying to make quick levels out of the dreadful system too?

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So the right thing to do is let people cheat while all the people who spend days grinding basically get screwed?
Isn't that just telling everyone in the game "when you find an exploit, use it as fast as possible" ?

azur its a grind either way,1 waits for que times, the other dont. To skip the que time and keep your honor, get 2 groups of 4 and do srs fights non stop 16 hrs a day. had a buddy the 3rd wk of 2.2 have a 186 min wait as a tank in solo que, thats not pvp thats waiting in an amusement park line during a summer vacation every match.

This community is really funny. PvP trading (don't care for PvP at all, and never will) is considered immoral, but using essentially a cheat code to beat content (ala. echo buff) is fine.

In both instances you're not truly earning the outcome.

lets not forget the wonderful compliments and praise that this illustrious community gives you if you don't win a pvp match. In fact, I was just in a match where we were doing ok, and due to some rng, one of our members died first. Instead of trying to raise him and keep it movin, our whm said "throwing the match. you guys are useless".

I think i'd rather risk win trading lol.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

lets not forget the wonderful compliments and praise that this illustrious community gives you if you don't win a pvp match. In fact, I was just in a match where we were doing ok, and due to some rng, one of our members died first. Instead of trying to raise him and keep it movin, our whm said "throwing the match. you guys are useless".

I think i'd rather risk win trading lol.

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Oh no! Let's avoid anything that might have someone be mean to me on the internet!

You know, I think maybe you guys complaining really do have a point. Maybe I should go make a similar thread, title it "Dzmael Darkhold speedrun exploitation, is this reportable?"

Or maybe "blm/whm sleep spam to win escort leves, is this reportable?"

How about "market board repricing exploitation, is this reportable?"

If a game as big as WoW comes out and officially says "ya know, we don't really like this but it's not a bannable offense" what makes you guys think you have the right opinion on this?

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Originally Posted by LeonRegulus

Oh no! Let's avoid anything that might have someone be mean to me on the internet!

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its not the being mean to me part. if i cared about that, i probably would cry myself to sleep over passive aggressive snark like yours. Its the "i fold, throwing the match" bs. With players like that, why shouldn't i win trade? 30 min in a queue to play with some self absorbed scrubs for some gear that i just want to glamour is not my idea of a good time.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You know, I think maybe you guys complaining really do have a point. Maybe I should go make a similar thread, title it "Dzmael Darkhold speedrun exploitation, is this reportable?"

Or maybe "blm/whm sleep spam to win escort leves, is this reportable?"

How about "market board repricing exploitation, is this reportable?"

If a game as big as WoW comes out and officially says "ya know, we don't really like this but it's not a bannable offense" what makes you guys think you have the right opinion on this?

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wtf are you talking about. I haven't played WoW in years but I guarantee you they do not put up with this kind of thing and will reset your rank if you try it. Either way, ignoring the community entirely is not the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Mupod

wtf are you talking about. I haven't played WoW in years but I guarantee you they do not put up with this kind of thing and will reset your rank if you try it. Either way, ignoring the community entirely is not the way to go.

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thats right, other games don't , the same crap happens but it is not a tollerated action. I checked on other games forums a couple weeks back, even SWTOR devs think its against the point of pvp to do such activities and have punishment for those caught doing it.

Btw, for anyone saying you can do this in WoW and the GM's are onboard with it, you are talking out of your ass.... It did take blizzard some time to deal with this exploit, but actions were taken against win trading, though it is a hard situation to monitor.

From WoW forums:

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As part of that commitment we regularly monitor gameplay, and have discovered an issue where some Arena teams have exploited the queuing system to obtain high team ratings, “dodge” unfavorable team compositions, and engage in win trading.

These, and all, exploitative activities are absolutely prohibited. We will investigate the situation carefully, and players that have been found to have participated in exploitation will be subject to the appropriate actions against their World of Warcraft accounts and characters, including:

Arena team deletion
Character MMR reset to 1500
All Conquest gear removed
Conquest earned tally reset, as well as all Honor and Conquest points removed.
All Arena achievements earned since the beginning of Mists of Pandaria removed.
3 day suspension

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Ontop of this accounts were banned outright iirc.

I'd really stop using nonsense arguments like they don't care about pvp to justify cheating. It may take square some time to get around to the cheaters, but they do get around to them in the end. I'd expect an announcement such as the one above from square at some point in the future.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Btw, for anyone saying you can do this in WoW and the GM's are onboard with it, you are talking out of your ass.... It did take blizzard some time to deal with this exploit, but actions were taken against win trading, though it is a hard situation to monitor.

From WoW forums:



Ontop of this accounts were banned outright iirc.

I'd really stop using nonsense arguments like they don't care about pvp to justify cheating. It may take square some time to get around to the cheaters, but they do get around to them in the end. I'd expect an announcement such as the one above from square at some point in the future.

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LOL You sir/madam win +10 Internets!

And that I think is /Thread right there lol

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Originally Posted by Kerowyn

LOL You sir/madam win +10 Internets!

And that I think is /Thread right there lol

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I doubt it sadly. People will still argue for it until SE takes actions.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Btw, for anyone saying you can do this in WoW and the GM's are onboard with it, you are talking out of your ass.... It did take blizzard some time to deal with this exploit, but actions were taken against win trading, though it is a hard situation to monitor.

From WoW forums:
As part of that commitment we regularly monitor gameplay, and have discovered an issue where some Arena teams have exploited the queuing system to obtain high team ratings, “dodge” unfavorable team compositions, and engage in win trading.

These, and all, exploitative activities are absolutely prohibited. We will investigate the situation carefully, and players that have been found to have participated in exploitation will be subject to the appropriate actions against their World of Warcraft accounts and characters, including:

Arena team deletion
Character MMR reset to 1500
All Conquest gear removed
Conquest earned tally reset, as well as all Honor and Conquest points removed.
All Arena achievements earned since the beginning of Mists of Pandaria removed.
3 day suspension



Ontop of this accounts were banned outright iirc.

I'd really stop using nonsense arguments like they don't care about pvp to justify cheating. It may take square some time to get around to the cheaters, but they do get around to them in the end. I'd expect an announcement such as the one above from square at some point in the future.

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Thanks for that tehomegaking , I never seen or looked up WoW's official stance on things even though alot of the people here seem to think its the contrary. I believe FFXIV needs similar enforcement regardless of how popular the current PvP is.

And why hasn't SE said anything yet? :( I'm starting to think no official comment will be said. People farmed commendations in guildhests, and powerleveled crafting and battles and nothing happened so I wonder if I should just stop worrying and get into the win trade scene <.<

To be fair to the contrary, blizzard never took a stance on battleground farming, only afk and arenas, which is their ranked version of pvp. That is something this game does not have(hopefully in frontlines) Also it took them from vanilla till mist of pandara to fix the ranked cheating, so uh 4 expansions after FF gets ranked pvp, please look foward to it. and if it was being taken care of or if they had a care about it, then it could've been mentioned during duty commenced at the forum thread section of the show.

i don't understand how it works.

also square and most players don't care about pvp

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

i don't understand how it works.

also square and most players don't care about pvp

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so because alot of players dont care about something, then can cheat the system to gear up faster? well i do not like crystal due to the constant trolling, so i will abused the join in progress and will consistently cancel my ready queues until i feel i think i got king behemoth. like wise, i think i should bot shards and mineral to lvl 50, after all i find farm botany and minering to be BEYOND boring and most players really dont care about this stuff anyways and hell me flood the market with this stuff can only make selling stuff better! in fact, why even do that, i should go and buy gil from RMT, since i dont care for gathering anyways. while im at it that ceiling hack would do wonders for me with gear that awesome tank gear jacket and other nonsensical hyperbole.

and square do care about pvp, otherwise SMN and WAR wouldnt nerfed for pvp

try again

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Originally Posted by AiChyan

And why hasn't SE said anything yet? :( I'm starting to think no official comment will be said. People farmed commendations in guildhests, and powerleveled crafting and battles and nothing happened so I wonder if I should just stop worrying and get into the win trade scene <.<

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while there havent been any nerfs to guild hest other than the fact you cant do coms in premades) SE did hella nerfed crafting leves. remember, back in 2.0, you can turn in 3 hq items for triple return, not it just a double return and they boosted the leves to balance that.


SE also banned the afk players in pvp back in 2.1. so win trade if you want to , but think this thoughg: is it worth going back to r 1 before the official word?

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Originally Posted by zulu_kulu

... then can cheat the system to gear up faster?

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they don't gear faster, they have only 50% of wins, meaning, they gear slower then anyone having more then 50% wins :P

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Originally Posted by Geobryn

they don't gear faster, they have only 50% of wins, meaning, they gear slower then anyone having more then 50% wins :P

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Wow, just wow. Where did you learn math? Theres alot of other variables in the mix here.

I don't see why doing anything like this is any more detestable than people who cheated the whole "3 random parties" thing with CT by setting up the 3 parties and all having them queue up under French language or something. And no, I did not find that detestable, just a clever workaround of silly mechanics.

Don't see what makes this any different than any other kind of group that wants to team up with another group to farm experience points in a way that's fair to both parties.

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Originally Posted by Geobryn

they don't gear faster, they have only 50% of wins, meaning, they gear slower then anyone having more then 50% wins :P

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I have to wait 30min per match
they get in nearly instant

Some of my matches last 10 minutes
Theirs all last 10 seconds or so

So yes... they gear -A LOT- faster.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I have to wait 30min per match
they get in nearly instant

Some of my matches last 10 minutes
Theirs all last 10 seconds or so

So yes... they gear -A LOT- faster.

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I'd like to know how long it takes you to reach rank 40 without doing premades. It is not our fault that PvP is so backseat and ignored. If you want PvP gear and don't do win trades you in my opinion are just wasting an epic amount of time. Once they change it so you can rank up faster ( more exp hopefully) and do more types of PvP like front lines people won't do it anymore, or as much. Until then though...with current queues its just not feasible or reasonable to do normally.

random Google doc link on reddit.

Not sure if this was posted before, bit damn is that discouraging.