infact i dunno what you mean. :3Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
Market Wards, enough is enough
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05-25-2011, 11:35 AMKam
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05-25-2011, 11:46 AMShaiI'd link you but you clearly know Kilta enough to know what I mean without reading it first hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kam
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05-25-2011, 11:48 AMPreypacerNah, they're not lying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracious
Cairdeas is just arguing semantics for whatever reason.
Judging by the various remarks in this thread and others about this issue, I think it should be pretty obvious what people mean in this context when they say they want an AH system. They want a system that allows them to more conveniently and quickly browse or search for an item, locate said item and purchase said item, without the hassle the current MW system introduces through its setup.
I personally am not fond of the MW setup even if they do stabilize it. To me, it's just another example of how SE has this penchant for occasionally taking something and over-complicating it, apparently for the sake of doing so; even when much more elegant and effective methods are already established.
I believe it's even in the most recent letter, or an otherwise very recent article, where it's discussed that they realized algorithms they're using for another aspect of the game are more complicated than they need to be. Again, typical SE.
Whether or not bidding is involved doesn't seem to be so much the issue and, in fact, I've hardly ever even seen that aspect of it brought up. -
05-25-2011, 12:40 PMAmsai
For reasons other people have already mentioned, I dislike the MW. Just read my sig to understand where I am coming from. It not only extends to the idea of an AH (there I said it Cairdeas!!!0.0), but also to the ridiculous repair system. They could at least let NPCs repair all gear to 100%. If not that then do something about the inconvenience of having to seek repairs from a PC. NPCs have figured out how to instantly repair things w/o having to unequip, why cant players? Its as Preypacer says, they just love to needlessly overcomplicate certain things. Yea, I know crafters need it...... gil sink..... blah blah blah..... First off, I dont care!!! Secondly, there would still be gil sinks in repairs, and there could be other gil sinks. Thirdly, crafters can be made relevant through crafting gear and that materia system and dying well enough.
Hmm went a bit off topic, but with that said I too am disappointed by the Community Reps response. They need to rectify that statement and quickly. I know quite a few people who's return was pending the inclusion of an AH. I also think that an AH will bring in more people than the MW. You don't attract new people to the game by catering to the RPs. You have to include things that will draw the largest playerbase, and like it or not that means an AH. Then again while SE can make some great games, sometimes its like they flip a coin to decide on a good or bad idea. The best example I can give you from the past is when SE made FF: Spirits Within movie. They tried to cater to a larger audience (that didn't care) in favor of catering to their fan base (who felt alienated). It bombed at the Box Office,especially considering how much money was sunk into it. This should have been a no brainer: Make a FF7 movie. Admittedly, it probably would have still done bad, but it would have done a lot better than Spirits Within.
I understand they have bigger fish to fry and a budget, but that statement shouldnt read they arent considering it yet. It should read that they are planning on implementing it after some of the other plans, changes and fixes are out of the way.
Bolded pretty much the only thing I have ever seen you write and actually liked it. I am willing to put up with a more efficient and easy market and economy. However, it it were up to me I'd do exactly as you said, but only consumables would be sold bey NPCs. Everything else would be Bind on Pickup, and gotten from quests and NMs and endgame, but thats just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus
Technically you are correct. However, I have seen more than enough of your posts to conclude you must think that you do. You have way too many posts in this thread alone, and most of it is you argueing (very ineffectively) in a very condescending and arrogant tone. So much so in this thread and other threads, that I am amazed you haven't been banned already. Even if mosts of your posts weren't as I have accurately descirbed, you still post often enough for it to be considered spam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus
By the way, how do you like my soon to be new Signature?
Kilta_Firelotus: Different Teams!!!
LOL. My God that one is a keeper. Thanks for making me laugh today Kilta. I had a really hard day at work, but because of you, I will sleep with ease. -
05-25-2011, 12:41 PMPoipori
I concur, enough is enough, why waste time, effort and manpower in fixing the buggy market wards, when there is already a proven workable method of auction house?
Market Wards is not interesting, people will not see it as a special feature of FFXIV, it is not something that will attract more players.
Seriously, all it does is provide unnecessary hassle and limitations for the player, it should be gone and replaced by AH. -
05-25-2011, 12:43 PMpolyhedral
market wards are too much work, not enough reward for spending time looking for items.
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05-25-2011, 12:55 PMKamI still don't know what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
On another note~
He'll argue anything, for any reason. Its not worth it. He is everything kilta hopes to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
Anyways.
AH please. Stop wasting time. -
05-25-2011, 01:14 PMPoipori
As a suggestion, they should do something similar to EQ2, integrating AH with personal housing.
They should have an AH, if people chooses to buy from AH, there will be taxes imposed on the items bought.
If they do not wished to be taxed, they have to go to the seller's house to buy the item.
Normally, for cheapers stuffs like crafting ingredients or consumables, I will buy it straight from AH, however, for expensive items like spell scrolls, I will take a trip to the seller's home(could be in another city) to buy it without tax.
This is a really nice system because it offers the ease of AH, on top of that, it encourages players to visits other player's house, sellers can show off their nicely furnitured home to their buyers(some 5-room homes equiped by bedroom, dining room etc really looked amazing). -
05-25-2011, 01:21 PMVanguard319yeah, Hypocracy never gets old it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldaena
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05-25-2011, 01:39 PMChronic
NO NEED FOR AN AUCTION HOUSE IN FFXIV. PERIOD
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05-25-2011, 01:56 PMMackGood argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronic
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05-25-2011, 02:02 PMIveraIvalicean auction house is definatly preferred. maybe not needed but its a whole lot easier. everything is right in front of you, no need to run around, no need to find your retainer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronic
i seriously wish they would add an AH, no need to get rid of the current system because it replaces having to buy another character to sell items from your bazaar. but i really think alot of people would be happier with a simple AH. -
05-25-2011, 04:04 PMpolyhedral
Because the SE defense force loves going around their ass to get to their elbows.
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05-25-2011, 04:31 PMNyaku
people should try to realize that SE can't just hit a button that adds a bug free, perfect to YOUR liking AH. AH, for the most part, tend to be very different in every game, a lot of people think AH=XI or AH=WoW and that IS the one and only AH. Honestly if they replaced the title of "Market Ward" with "Auction House" there would probably be a lot less complaining, because in reality, the wards ARE just a different style of an auction house.
Now with that said, no i don't think the wards are perfect, and yes i think they have a ways to go. But its like the last dev said on here, creating an AH wouldn't just solve every and all problems. They can't just port over an AH from your favorite MMO in a day. Also, i'd bet a good number of (maybe just a few) the people that are complaining and saying market wards are terrible... haven't even looked at them since september... I'm not trying to say "LOL no AH, wards are perfect!" i'm just saying maybe think about what your trying to ask for, and how much sense it makes...
ok, sorry, rant off XD -
05-25-2011, 04:39 PMElexia"People have an opposing opinion and don't support everything they should, therefore they're a defense force."Quote:
Originally Posted by polyhedral
I swear that's one of the more trollish statements people make. Seriously, even a community rep stated it's not this magical fix it you're all making it out to be, people love to throw out "defense force" but it seems like the other 'pro-AH' people are the main culprits of closing their ears and eyes going "lalalala can't hear you" lol. -
05-25-2011, 04:54 PMgenmakenx
I like the retainer system and like searching that way. Its just annoying when selling things, if it could be made easier that would be best. Its hard to have to item search, the current way, for each item then price accordingly. I just cant be bothered with it. Finding and buying however i like.
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05-25-2011, 05:18 PMPrevbeanQuote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
This game has been out for like 7 months theres no excuse for a huge company like SE to not add in something
A. mostly everyone wants
B. Something that has been in MMOs since the 90s
C.Makes buying and selling crap in this game not take so damn long that is considered a more "casual" game
So please /unequip your defense armor, Having no AH in this game is a damn joke period .
Keep the market wards if you must but please any word on an Auction house is much appreciated.
PS don't bother replying I wont bother with people like you it's like talking to someone in a cult. -
05-25-2011, 05:32 PMSeifHonestly?! Are you on crack? What kind of logic is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
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05-25-2011, 05:41 PMPoiporiI know, kinda hard to swallow that, why are they so stubborn, Market Wards do not offer any fun or benefits, it is a cumbersome system that needs to be changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seif
According to the Player's Poll, Market Ward has been deemed as the 3rd most glaring problem of FFXIV and Auction Houses has been deemed as the 2nd most wanted feature to be implemented.
What more is needed to convince them that their beloved Market Ward is a FAILURE? -
05-25-2011, 05:55 PMSeif
]I thought I posted it here but it's the same thing as mount system:
Can you please ask SE to hire a real GAME DESIGNER to decide and design these things instead of trying to gauge to which direction the mud-slinging on the forums seems to have a stronger current? -
05-25-2011, 07:23 PMSorelQuote:
Originally Posted by Prevbean
Consider the word given, sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
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05-25-2011, 07:28 PMSuzakuCMX
I'll post it again.
I want a hybrid.
All wards from each city are linked.
ONE WARD ONLY.
Wards are longer.
Retainers do not sell things.
Each Stall has an NPC auctioneer
Auctioneers each represent what is currently a "ward." So each auctioneer would specifically sell only things from that ward.
Retainers can be accessed from anywhere to put something for sale on that auctioneer (for a surcharge). -
05-25-2011, 07:38 PMAmineriLet's take the example of the auction house in Aion. Was that really a proven, workable method? Did not the RMT machine come in and completely and utterly destroy that game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poipori
I fail to see how an auction house (that doesn't actually have auctions, but functions primarily as a buying and selling marketplace) is going to fix all the issues in the game? -
05-25-2011, 07:52 PMShinChuckHow is that an argument for the wards when you said right there it's about delinking marketplaces, and could be done with an AH? That's not an argument for the wards, it's an argument for separating the marketplaces, which is a separate issue entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiemdall
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05-25-2011, 07:54 PMCairdeasa. 26% is not "Mostly everyone"Quote:
Originally Posted by Prevbean
B. Nope. The First MMO Auction house wasn't public til after 2000.
c. This is an opinion and has nothing to do with an Auction house.
Without Timed or Blind Bidding it is NOT an auction house and it doesn't need to be called such, Just implement the features of an auction house (minus the timed and blind bidding) to the market wards. This can be easily done. Those of us who do not want Auction Houses do not want Timed or Blind Bidding. We do want a Convenient market system though. -
05-25-2011, 07:58 PMAmineriHa ha! Either I don't get it, or I do get it, but you don't get that I get it :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus
In either an Auction House (with actual auctions, meaning bidding) or a marketplace of some kind, sellers don't set the price. The may ATTEMPT to set the price, but buyers have just as much power in determining the final sale price as the buyers.
I could try and sell my Darksteel Ore for 1million gil per piece, because no one else is selling. But no one would buy it. That means that I haven't set the price.
When I look at the item search function for the current market wards, I don't think "Item X is selling for price Y", I think "Someone is trying to sell item X for price Y". There is a world of difference.
Sellers always try and maximize the amount that they can sell an item for. Buyers always try and minimize the price they buy something for. Nothing will change that. The goal of a market system or auction system is to quickly and efficiently allow buyers and sellers to reach a compromise price that they will both agree on.
Currently, the system is ineffective and sluggish because sellers can only guess at prices, and if an item doesn't sell, re-list it at a lower price. Buyers are not represented, because the 'item seek' function is broken (in oh-so-many ways).
In the end transactions only happen because the buyer and seller value the item and gil differently. If the seller values 10k gil more than a pinch of bomb ash, and the buyer values the pinch of bomb ash more than the 10k gil, then a transaction occurs. The current market system fails to find these pairings efficiently.
Slapping an menu-interface on the current system, and allowing instant delivery of the item to the player will hardly accomplish anything. More tools to aid buying / selling are needed.
These could include:- Fixing the 'seek item' system to allow it to be searched, sought items to take only one bazaar slot, purchasing of smaller increments than the total number requested, and not requiring the player to already have the items to be sought. This fix has nothing to do with auction house vs market wards.
- Allowing buy orders, where a retainer is given the order to go out and search for items at or under a given price. The retainer seeks through the market wards, looking for the item, returning it if found. If not, the buy order can remain in effect, until someone lists such an item. Again, nothing to do with auction house vs market ward.
This is what Bayohne said. There are deeper issues that are keeping buyer and seller from finding each other to exchange goods. I hope that the dev team is coming up with some good solutions ... but I'm not holding my breath. - Fixing the 'seek item' system to allow it to be searched, sought items to take only one bazaar slot, purchasing of smaller increments than the total number requested, and not requiring the player to already have the items to be sought. This fix has nothing to do with auction house vs market wards.
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05-25-2011, 08:01 PMCairdeas
I'd rather have buy orders then Auctions. :P
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05-25-2011, 08:16 PMAmineriI don't get why our retainers are such useless idiots, to be honest. I can ring a bell across the world and they come to me, yet I can't tell them to set up shop in sell in a particular ward in a particular city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairdeas
What is truly ridiculous is that I can't ask my retainer to effectively purchase anything. For example, want to buy 100 lightning crystals. You'd think that if someone came along and was willing to sell 7 crystals, my retainer would buy the 7 crystals, and keep trying to buy 93 more. But no, instead someone has to sell ALL 100 CRYSTALS in one lump sum.
In short, the buyer side of the economy is really broken. -
05-25-2011, 08:16 PMShinChuck
It's just semantics to say that people asking for an "AH" want AUCTIONS AUCTIONS AUCTIONS and NOTHING ELSE will suffice. I'd really like to know how many people use "buyout" options verse actual auctions. I personally rarely ever actually auction items or bid on them, and I'd be surprised if most people got most of their purchases that way.
When people ask for an AH, I daresay they're more referring to a general set of features associated with an auction house, not AUCTIONS OR DIE, and a system with every single feature except literal auctions isn't good enough. Like when you're at a restaurant, and someone orders a "Coke". They don't necessarily mean, "I want a Coke, and Pepsi or Faygo or Royal Crown will not suffice," they usually just mean, "I want a dark carbonated cola."
Is it possible they specifically want Coke and nothing else? Sure. But I think we're all intelligent enough to understand what's being said in this given situation. -
05-25-2011, 08:20 PMSuzakuCMXThe meaning of "Coke" actually changes depending on where you live.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinChuck
In some places it means soda and in others it refers only to Coca-cola.
Not really relevant but it bugs me :( -
05-25-2011, 08:22 PMAmineriI agree completely, ShinChuck. When people say they want an "auction house", they don't actually want bids and auctions. So, rather than saying "I want an auction house", why don't people get more specific about what's really missing?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinChuck
Pretty much all I've heard people wanting that is different from the current system is the ability to not have to walk in to the wards to purchase the item. Is there some more than this? I don't think that not having to walk into the wards is going to fix the significant problems in the economy as it stands (e.g. massive gil inflation, overabundance of items, inability to find price-point between buyer and seller).
So list those specific features, and we can get down to serious discussion!! :D (Believe me, I don't think the Market System is perfect or even works well. I simply object to the notion that a cry of "auction house" will magically make everything get better.) -
05-25-2011, 09:04 PMSorelI am definitely on-board with the idea of buy orders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amineri
But I don't think I understand your first bullet-point, Amineri. I don't understand what problem that is trying to solve. Could you break that one down for me? -
05-25-2011, 09:11 PMSuzakuCMXRight now you need to have the item you're seeking in your inventory before you can put it up as being sought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel
And your retainer will also ONLY buy the exact amount you want, no more and no less. So if you want 100 Ice Shards, somebody can't sell you 50 and then you'll only be seeking 50 more. They have to sell you all 100 at once. -
05-25-2011, 09:13 PMCairdeasThis is what I've been saying. In the inverse the people who are screaming "We do not want an auction house" are not saying they do not want all those additions that get tacked onto an auction house for the time and convenience and are labeled as an Auction house. We are saying we do not want Timed or Blind Bidding which is the only feature an auction house offers that is exclusive to the auction house itself. All the other bonus features are illusionary features and do not require an auction house to be implemented into a market system.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinChuck
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05-25-2011, 09:33 PMAmineriThe seek item feature has the following deficiencies:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel
- Items being sought cannot be searched via an item search function : there is no way to find a retainer that is seeking something, other than examining each and every retainer in the ward individually -- never going to happen. Not only that, there isn't even a unique icon for 'seek item' compared to selling item.
- You must have the item you wish to buy. Want to buy 100 lightning crystals? You must already have 100 lightning crystals, and these lightning crystals have to be kept on your retainer, until someone sells your retainer the crystals. Even better. Want to buy a Crab Bow +3? You can only do this if you already HAVE a Crab Bow +3. But if you already have it, why would you seek for it? To add insult to injury, the item you are seeking must be at 100% repair or it can't go into the bazaar.
- Suppose despite the above, you go ahead and have your retainer seek 100 lightning crystals. You give a price you are willing to pay, and lightning crystals go into the retainers bazaar. Now, the retainer will only buy ALL 100 crystals all at once, as part of a single transaction. If someone finds your retainer, and wants to sell 7 lightning crystals, it can't happen. It's all-or-nothing. A more rational system would let the retainer buy the 7 lightning crystals, and continue seeking for the remaining 93.
- As if the above weren't enough to make 'seek item' completely worthless, seeking an item takes up TWO bazaar slots. One slot is filled with the item(s) being sought, and the other slot is taken up by the gil or item reward. Thus a retainer can only seek for FIVE different items, compared to selling TEN items.
All of these add up to a system that is completely useless. As a consequence buyers are forced to exert their influence passively, by buying or refusing to buy items that sellers list.
If the 'seek item' feature were working, it could work both ways: buyers could see what sellers are willing to sell at, and sellers could see what buyers are willing to buy at. This extra information would hopefully allow prices to converge to an acceptable compromise more quickly.
Additionally, it is not uncommon for me to end up with one or two of a semi-valuable stackable item. It isn't worth MY time to try and use a bazaar slot to sell a single item. If the 'seek item' feature worked, I could sell the item to a player (for more than I could NPC it), and the player could turn around and resell it for a higher price. This works because that player has a large stock of the item, and is willing to wait the longer periods of time necessary to sell the item.
This is win-win. I get more gil than selling to an NPC. The reseller earns gil by simply buying and reselling items. More of the items stay in the game (rather than being sold to NPC or discarded), making greater availability and more stable prices for consumer of the items. -
05-25-2011, 11:01 PMAkuunIf Yoshi-P really wants to make that system work, then they will need to create retainer models, ones that are much lower poly counts than the player models currently used. Displaying all those high poly models is very tasking on any system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
Also another thing that would help is removing retainers once they have run out of items to sell, unless they are renting a booth (that would only be fair).
My honest opinion of the market is it's unstable, over crowded, very tasking on clients/server, it looks horrid and not even one bit like a market. and I think it would probably be better to replace it with something like the Ul'dah market strips with open sky, and have NPCs sell for players on commission (not retainers). With these changes it might even be possible to have npcs that walk around shopping (adjusted by number of players in the ward) which would give atmosphere and make the game feel a little more alive (seriously, the game feels pretty dead in towns, npcs wandering around going about daily tasks adds a nice feel) -
05-25-2011, 11:25 PMElexia"Don't bother arguing my point because I'm right and you're wrong there's nothing etc and I'll continue to ignore that they're working on the actual game that should have been completed before release."Quote:
Originally Posted by Prevbean
Guess you got rejected from the Matilda casting call eh? -
05-25-2011, 11:26 PMElexia
Also, lol@people still thinking an AH is an instant fix.
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05-25-2011, 11:34 PMLarther
Auction House, please.
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05-25-2011, 11:37 PMDemacia
Just cut the retainer selling bullshit and make all sales happen through an interface (aka an AH).