Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

I agree with everything else you said, but in Shield Oath a PLD will be slightly lower in DPS than a WAR in defiance, but in Sword Oath a PLD will be doing more damage than a WAR out of defiance.

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That's sort of off the point. But yeah, WAR is ~8-16% higher in DPS than PLD if both are in their tank stance. PLD is higher out of tank stance.

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I'd disagree that PLD has higher DPS than warrior if both are out of tank stance. Maim is good and PLD has no corollary.

Using DPS as a gauge can be misleading. While, on average, the difference between WAR and PLD tanking dps is negligible, the burst potential warrior has is unrivaled. In just over 20 seconds, a warrior has the potential to put out 6k damage if they pop every cooldown. Not really all that useful in most scenarios but it's nice to be able to down titan heart with 2 dps down.

Considering that the dev team looked at other games for ideas and examples to make FFXIV more "current", they should really just look at what the Warrior is very close to in design, the DK Tank in terms of mitigation and self healing.

They have solid dps even while tanking, great aoe utility (what I'd do for a DnD for my warrior) and amazing self healing to buffer the lack of blocking.

I'm not saying just straight "copy" the class, but if Warriors are to have the ability to mitigate via self heals, we definitely need to have *more* ability to do so. The skills we have currently isn't sufficient enough from the sounds of it. Plus, much like Blood, they have mitigation built into the stance.

Maybe give Warriors additional passive defense via defiance (say 10%?), then a passive effect of an additional parry rating or passive health on strike (like a passive bloodbath) or rework the amount healed via storms path.

Didn't it used to provide a shield back in one of the beta's? If so what was the reason it got changed. Even if they made using the same math it would be pretty cool, you could potentially give yourself a 1-2k stoneskin every time it was up.(just using the numbers i have seen floating in this thread, I,m only 27 so no idea what ib really does damage wise)

<edit> I fail at spelling

I had this big long post that I at least thought was insightful and then it got eaten by the 1000 character limit. Man. Oh well, in a nutshell...

Warriors need a buff but the sky isn't falling.

Marauders need a DPS oriented job so that people who just want to smash things with a greataxe can do so. I'm sure this is why warriors are seen as doing more damage.

If they want to buff Foresight to fix warrior problems, they need to do it by adding stuff to the Enhanced Foresight trait rather than changing Foresight directly to keep the changes out of the hands of other classes.

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

they need to do it by adding stuff to the Enhanced Foresight trait rather than changing Foresight directly to keep the changes out of the hands of other classes.

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I second that motion!

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Originally Posted by Kunkka

I'd disagree that PLD has higher DPS than warrior if both are out of tank stance. Maim is good and PLD has no corollary.

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Actually, PAL does have a corollary. In fact, it has 2: Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within. WAR Fracture provides 300 potency every 30 seconds (100 immediate + 10 tick of 20 potency). Circle of Scorn is on a 25 second CD and provides 250 potency. Spirits Within is on a 30 second CD and, as a DPS, should always be 300 potency. Both Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within are off GCD, so they can be used without hindering anything else.

Now, if you want me to do the math (whee!)...

It's pretty much the same numbers as the tank stance stuff with a couple changes: WAR no longer has a .75 modifier and PAL loses the .8 modifier. On top of that, PAL gets some bonus potency in the form of Sword Oath and Spirits Within is used at max hp (since DPS doesn't take it to the face). Baseline potency per GCD of an autoattack is 83.33 (auto-attack / ((damage * delay) / GCD)). Sword Oath provides an additional 50 potency to each of those, such that PAL auto-attack is 133.33 additional potency. Bring in the previous formulas modified for the given values (using the Fracture math for WARs):

WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 / .9 = 424.31

PAL:
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 = 425.29

PAL (with WAR present):
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 / .9 = 472.54

So a PAL does either 100.2% of what a WAR does or 111.37% while in their DPS set ups. PAL is explicitly better, but it's not by a massive amount when you get down to it.

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

Marauders need a DPS oriented job so that people who just want to smash things with a greataxe can do so.

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Call it Barbarian and require PGL or LNC instead of GLA. Draw from PGL and LNC for additionals.

At 30, give them a stance (Battle Rage) that is just like Defiance only it reduces enmity generated and possibly increases damage. Have it provide a stacking buff (Fury) whenever you use a combo attack that increases auto-attack speed by 15%. At 5 stacks, you become Enraged.

At 35, give them an attack (Furious Blow) that consumes 5 stacks of Fury to deal a 600 (haven't done much DPS so this is just a "pulled out of my ass, seems like it's right" number) potency attack.

At 40, give them an ability (Undaunted) that consumes 5 stacks of Fury to regain 500 TP.

At 45, give them an ability (Fearsome Cry) with a 30 sec CD that silences all nearby enemies for 5 seconds.

At 50, give them an ability (Battle Cry) with a 60 sec CD that provides 5 stacks of Fury immediately.

Bam, you've got a DPS MAR job that thematically matches the WAR's progression.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

DoT stuff.

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Also can't fracture be cross classed by paladin? So they get ALL THREE?

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Originally Posted by Ahlen

Also can't fracture be cross classed by paladin? So they get ALL THREE?

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The additional version of Fracture only has an 18 second duration, which reduces the effective potency from 300 to 220 while also increasing the GCD consumption. It's a *very* slight DPS increase to use it. So small that it's effectively pointless to bring it up.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I just did the math for *in* tank stance. It's a slight edge to PAL, and I've got *no clue* where you got the 8-16% number from.

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I've done the math too. In tank stance a PLD will be at ~295 Potency, while a WAR will be ~312 Potency, without counting Berserk, Unchained, Internal Release, or Inner Beast. Without any of that, WAR has ~6% lead. If you add those things in, and use them on cooldown you can extend the lead to 18% or higher, but it comes at a high cost to the WAR and isn't realistic. I just made a (long) post on Reddit about it, I'd be happy to link it. (Note that I also considered PLD using fight or flight on Cooldown).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It's pretty much the same numbers as the tank stance stuff with a couple changes: WAR no longer has a .75 modifier and PAL loses the .8 modifier. On top of that, PAL gets some bonus potency in the form of Sword Oath. Baseline potency per GCD of an autoattack is 83.33 (auto-attack / ((damage * delay) / GCD)). Sword Oath provides an additional 50 potency to each of those, such that PAL auto-attack is 133.33 additional potency. Bring in the previous formulas modified for the given values (using the Fracture math for WARs):

WAR:
(213.85 + 83.33)*1.2 * 1.0556 / .9 = 418.27

PAL:
(203.3 + 25 + 20.8 + 133.33) * 1.05 = 401.55

PAL (with WAR present):
(203.3 + 25 + 20.8 + 133.33) * 1.05 / .9 = 446.17

So a PAL does either 96% of what a WAR does or 106.6% while in their DPS stances. Once again, we're talking about what is effectively no difference (balanced within 5% is balanced).

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This is slightly off. First, both circle of Scorn and Spirits Within work out to 25 Potency per 2.5, so I don't know where 20.8 comes from.

Second, you're not normalizing sword oath and instead adding 50 potency to the auto attacks which you've normalized to 2.5 seconds. Using Curtana as an example, that means an additional 50 potency attack every 2.32 seconds, not every 2.5.

So Sword Oath will contribute ~53.9 potency per 2.5 second global.

This puts the PLD (solo) calculation at:

203.33 + 53.9 + 25 + 25 + 83.333 = 390.563

With Fight or Flight used on Cooldown, it works out to 429.619, which is already higher than the WAR before you add in Storm's Eye for the PLD. But with Internal Release and Berserk used on CD for the WAR they would slightly overtake the PLD, but still be lower than a PLD in a situation where a warrior is present and using storm's eye.

I'm not sure why you were multiplying by 1.05 (Fight or Flight is a 10% buff, averaged out).