New Variant Dungeon: Reward structure is a downgrade from previous ones.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

The problem with previous variant/criterion dungeons was that the few rewards they had were all tied to the easier modes while the harder difficulties had nothing. Reversing that would be an upgrade, not a downgrade. It's still not great mind you, since AFAIK the rewards are once again single use, niche in their appeal and tradeable - but still. If you want the rewards, you can earn them. If you don't want to engage with the content, that's your choice.

Mounts and similar rewards in normal-level dungeons would just be participation trophies, and IMO a waste of assets that could otherwise be used to offer meaningful rewards that players can chase by overcoming challenges. Normal/variant mode is just there for the story/for fun. Replayability isn't really a problem either considering you can solo it. Incentivizing players to re-run content is more a concern for stuff that requires multiple players to clear.

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Not really, they didn't actually improve the reward structure for criterion, they just shuffled the usual rewards around.

Criterion rewards still aren't good, now the "casual mode" just has worse rewards as well. So all they really did is redistribute the problem people had with the original 3, not actually fix it.

Ho no ! No mount to sleep in our collection and never be used !
Instead an item that has at least a chance to be use from time to time ...
Clearly a downgrade yeah ... if you don't take 2 sec to think about it I suppose.

Can't believe they made it worse lol. Take away a reward from Variant and no improvements to Criterion at all. Just have one mount in Variant, one in Advanced and figure out something useful for that would be worth the effort for Criterion like for instance the tomestone gear augment materials

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Originally Posted by Elanna

Ho no ! No mount to sleep in our collection and never be used !
Instead an item that has at least a chance to be use from time to time ...
Clearly a downgrade yeah ... if you don't take 2 sec to think about it I suppose.

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This thread: explaining with nuance why the reward structure is lacking and how to improve it / why people are upset
you: I can't read, I don't know

So again, the casual player base are fucked over by the devs. I'm so over Dawntrail and the shitty direction this game is going. Why do they feel the need to change a formula that's worked in the past. A stupid eye mask is not a worthy reward for the time investment.

There is literally no incentive or reason for me, personally, to touch this tripe now. Bravo SE, yet again, you've fucked it, because you only seem to cater to the endgame crowd at the moment.

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Originally Posted by SkellCross

It's kinda insulting we got mounts for clearing all 12 routes for the last 3 Variant Dungeons, this time we get a piece of Facewear. That would almost be acceptable if it was Merchant's Tale themed. But it's the Chocobo Pyjama's Sleep Mask. It's not a Corvosi Mask, or a Near East themed mask. It's not a mask of any of the dungeon bosses. It's a facewear you could slot into any other content and it would be fine.

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This… at least make it something relevant to the dungeon! Missed opportunity to make a veil for facewear…

But yes, adding to the chorus of those disappointed that the Variant completionist reward was so severely downgraded.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

You’re treating rewards for content you enjoy as meaningful, but rewards for content others enjoy as a waste. That’s just personal bias. if rewards don’t matter for normal/variant because it’s just for fun, then the same logic should apply to high‑end content too. Yet whenever a high‑end mode lacks rewards, people immediately say it’s not worth running. That’s just pure hypocrisy.

Again, it's not about taking anything away from raiders.

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It's not about what I enjoy, it's the difficulty. An item granted for overcoming a great challenge would inarguably be more meaningful than something given out for free. When I see a player with an Ultimate weapon, it tells me they've cleared an Ultimate. When I see a player with a Manderville weapon, it tells me they watched some cutscenes. There's a story behind everything.

Rewarding higher difficulty is just basic game design. When a hard version of some content lacks rewards, people say it's not worth running because the extra effort feels wasted if they can run the easy version for the same result. Normal modes for other content like raids exist so that players who don't have the time, will or skill to invest in clearing it can still enjoy the story, exploration and spectacle aspects of it - emphasis on exploration, in the case of Variant. The ride itself is the primary appeal.

This is less the case for high-end versions of content. A big part of the appeal of overcoming hard challenges like this in an MMO is being able to show off the shiny and exclusive reward you got at the end. It's not just about doing it, but about having proof and being recognized for having done it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to having rewards in the easy mode too; but sadly it does take away from raiders. Between dev time and creative expenditure, there are only so many mounts, etc SE can make. Unless they change the game's structure such that other avenues of reward can be introduced which don't require all that design, modelling, texturing and animation to make, items like this must be spent wisely. Clearing all 13 paths should offer a reward of some kind, but if SE can only manage this type and quantity of rewards, I think the challenging versions of the dungeon should be prioritized.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

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You really talk like your personal sense of meaningful difficulty is the standard for reward distribution yet most players don’t evaluate glamour, mounts, or weapons based on difficulty they just use what they like. Seeing someone with an Ultimate or a Manderville weapon doesn’t tell me anything except that they like the weapon. The idea that difficulty automatically makes an item more meaningful is a preference, not a hard fact. Practically nobody looks at someone's character and goes "omg they cleared an ultimate that is SO cool." they rather go "Oh that's a cool glam." regardless of where they got it from.

And I'm sorry but "Between dev time and creative expenditure, there are only so many mounts, etc SE can make." again, casuals also contribute to the funds that pays for dev time. So only catering to one side of the playerbase is simply not good. Like, people are not paying their sub just to fund hardcore content.

You also say that giving rewards to normal‑mode content takes away from raiders but that doesn’t hold up at all in DT. Raiders have had an enormous amount of content this expansion: three raid tiers as usual, an Ultimate, another Ultimate on the way, Forked Tower, Chaotic Cloud of Darkness, Quantum mode, multiple extremes as always and now Criterion again. On top of that, they also get to do all the bits of content casuals get. So like, what more do you want, really?

All with an added bonus of much better fight design. That’s all great, high‑end players should also get content. But removing rewards or straight up content from casual players doesn’t add anything to high‑end players it only removes goals from everyone else. And lowers a game population which is already falling off a cliff.

But sure, keep pretending this is the right path, watch more and more casuals drift away, Square Enix not meeting the funds to create more and more raiding content until you don't even get that.

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Originally Posted by Jaltaer

You must have missed the insane meltdowns that happened here and in other places because "waahhhhhhhhh i want the hair but i dont want to do harder content or spend gil i just want the rewards NOW no i dont want to earn them just GIVE THEM to me" over Chaotic.
They basically can't win - give higher-end content actually decent rewards, you get tantrums from people who want the rewards but abjectly refuse to even consider stepping foot in the content. Don't give it good rewards, you basically kneecap it at the starting line because now there's no motivation to run it for 90% of people. Of course, this could be solved if they stopped listening to the first group but eh, there's a reason babies scream and cry - it gets results.

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Casuals weren't demanding "free" rewards and you know it, but then it's typical of hardcore players to accuse casuals of being "entitled" while they themselves are fat and bloated on content and rewards and then shriek bloody murder when their promised Savages and Ultimates get merely delayed, not cancelled, while normal modes and their rewards get axed all the time for over a year now.
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Originally Posted by Underscore

It's not about what I enjoy, it's the difficulty. An item granted for overcoming a great challenge would inarguably be more meaningful than something given out for free. When I see a player with an Ultimate weapon, it tells me they've cleared an Ultimate. When I see a player with a Manderville weapon, it tells me they watched some cutscenes. There's a story behind everything.

This is less the case for high-end versions of content. A big part of the appeal of overcoming hard challenges like this in an MMO is being able to show off the shiny and exclusive reward you got at the end. It's not just about doing it, but about having proof and being recognized for having done it.

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Contrary to popular belief, a majority of the playerbase does not in fact fawn over your accomplishments and wishes they could be you, most of us are likely to run right past you not knowing you from anyone else. You playing a Hyur is more likely to turn heads, not whatever hardcore glam or title you covered yourself with, especially when none of us can confirm if you ACTUALLY did it without paying up or resorting to third-party tools, or how without achievement confirmation we wouldn't even know if you did something when it was current versus waiting until you could unsync it.

I wouldn't even recognize an Ultimate weapon if I saw one, and even if I could identify one, the only thing it tells me is that the person probably has a rotten attitude because that seems to be quite common with the hardcore playerbase.

Why should I even care about hardcore player accomplishments when they don't care if casuals get anything at all?

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Originally Posted by Underscore

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to having rewards in the easy mode too; but sadly it does take away from raiders. Between dev time and creative expenditure, there are only so many mounts, etc SE can make. Unless they change the game's structure such that other avenues of reward can be introduced which don't require all that design, modelling, texturing and animation to make, items like this must be spent wisely. Clearing all 13 paths should offer a reward of some kind, but if SE can only manage this type and quantity of rewards, I think the challenging versions of the dungeon should be prioritized.

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A smart businessman would go for a majority playerbase satisfaction rather than the minority. Truth of the matter is that raiders seem to make a third of the game's population or less (based on the tier completion achievement). Catering to them extensively as we've seen in this expansion so far is certainly a big factor into the sub counts dropping as much as they did; there's just nothing to do otherwise.

What's the clear % of previous Criterions that justify this decision?